Trying to remove pressure plate slotted screws with engine in place.

[schrader7032]

John -

I think your clutch pack is correct in that the piece showing on the back like the pictures earlier appears to be right. My R69S has the same thing showing from the rear. I remember trying to get the clutch push rod with the square tip installed on my R25/2...took some doing. I would certainly check that out. Seems to me that if you didn't have that installed correctly, setting up the clutch mechanism and hand lever wouldn't have worked out indicating some kind of problem.

[vechorik1373]

John said:
Since reassembling it, the clutch lever is VERY hard to pull. In fact, it doesn't engage the clutch at all. I plan on disassembling it again. What did I do wrong?

My initial thought was I had put the clutch disc in backwards. Currently (as in Kurt's photo), the proud center piece is facing back toward the gearbox. Is that wrong?
No, that is correct.

Alternatively, I am thinking that I didn't align the square end of the clutch push rod into the square hole of the rearward-facing clutch plate.
If you missed getting the square end in the hole of the spring plate, (which I think you may have) you clutch push rod would appear to be too long, and you would have had to backed out the adjuster bolt on the transmission arm to fit the cable on.

The way to insure the push rod seats in the square hole of the spring plate, is to put the gearbox in, (but not all the way forward to the engine) and use a pair of Hemostats to clip onto the clutch push rod, and pull the rod forward, through the clutch spline, and while fooling around in an attempt to plug the push rod in the square hole, put and allen wrench in the socket head cap screw that holds the armature on, and rotate the engine a little with your left hand while pushing the rod forward with your right hand. When the push rod slides forward and suddenly begins to turn as you rotate the crankshaft, you will then know it is plugged in, and engaged. Then put the gearbox on the rest of the way.

Also, did you install a 7 mm thick clutch plate? (21 21 0 070 025 part number) You see, a later clutch plate from an R50 - R60/2 will fit, but they are too thick. 9 mm thickness That can cause the clutch not disengage, because there simply is not enough room to push the spring plate back far enough to release the clutch plate.


Any clues?

Many thanks!

John

[schrader7032]

I made this tool to clamp on the aft end of the clutch pushrod on my R25/2 which let me lever it around in such a way to push the square end home. The screw holds the two halves together to pinch the aft end of the pushrod.

[Kowaltoboggan]

Thanks, all. My new clutch disc (either from Vech or Uli's) is the 7mm thick variety. I disassembled it twice already this iteration to double check if the toothed ring was in correctly or if it was reversed. I am quite sure it is in correctly (concave face facing gearbox). The aft pressure plate is straight and equally flush all around when tightened down so it isn't skew.

With my feeble-minded attempts at trying to imagine the mechanics of the mechanism and what else I could screw up, am left with the pushrod not being home in its square hole. And as I can't picture how it works, I can't imagine how not being in its square hole would make the transmission lock to the engine output shaft.

Am going to remove the gearbox again, remove the push rod, just set the push rod into its square hole and mark the rod where it disappears into the clutch disc as reference for when I mash everything together the third (final?) time. If that doesn't work, will try a tool aid like the one pictured above (thanks for that!).

[bellsonracing]

Don't know if this will be helpful to you, but the last time I replaced the clutch disc, it was very hard to pull and couldn't be adjusted. I thought I put in the wrong disc, replaced the whole assembly, but long story short, it turned out the clutch cable was pinched between the frame and engine.

[Kowaltoboggan]

That is a good point to check. I had checked the cable and it slid nicely through the sheath.

My problems all started 6 years ago when I misadjusted the clutch cable, it started slipping and made me think that the clutch disc actually was worn/oil damaged, or something. So I took the gearbox out then, checked the clutch disc (was actually quite fine at 6mm thickness, put it back and encountered the same hard to pull scenario. That time, i knew I put the clutch disc in exactly as I had removed it. Turns out that I didn't align the clutch push rod. Vech and the yahoo group at the time helped me through that.

I then had to put my bike into storage for four years. I got it back late last year and have been recommissioning it, and had lubed the cables. By now, I had forgotten how to adjust the clutch and repeated the same error. The remnants of the yahoo group helped me adjust it, but it was still slipping. This time when I removed the gearbox to check the clutch, it was outside and at night and I didn't take photos along the way. That caused me to think I had reassembled something incorrectly.

Lesson here for people like me is to take good notes and photos throughout such processes wherein we are in uncharted or less frequently traveled territory.

Interestingly, there are plenty of exploded parts drawings of the clutch components, but none that show precisely which way the toothed ring gear go in or the clutch disc. That is why I was thankful to see Kurt's pics of his still assembled clutch pack.

[dellatorre6708]

I've used Vech's way. Works great.
Frank.
NYC.

[Kowaltoboggan]

Removed the transmission for the fourth time today to find what is causing the clutch to not move after replacing the old clutch disc due to slippage. (Found cause of the slippage was the felt around the pushrod had perished, allowing oil to seep down the pushrod and onto the rear clutch surface.)

Put the pushrod in alone to ensure it seated in the square hole. It did. Marked the pushrod with a white pen so I would know when it seated home.

Disassembled the clutch pack again. Was correct. Even tried installing the outer toothed ring backwards from how I had it. Noticed the forward side fits inside the flywheel. Realized it can't be installed backwards. Reassembled the clutch pack centering it on Vech's clutch tool (as I had done the previous three times). Positioned the springs in their pockets and tightened it down with the four long clutch installation screws. Added four clutch screws, replaced the long ones with the remaining four clutch screws and snugged them sequentially to tight.

Changed the felt on the pushrod, reinstalled into gearbox set the gearbox into place and walked the pushrod forward with needle nose pliers until I was sure I found the square hole and pushed it forward until it stopped at my reference mark. Mated the gearbox to engine case and screwed everything down.

Ensured the ball bearing and races behind the pushrod were OK. Put that clutch arm back on, reattached cable and spring.

Clutch still doesn't work.

Checked cable. Was a little stiff so replaced that and adjusted at 10mm nut on clutch arm and then at hand grip.

Still solid as a rock.

Seems that the clutch arm pushes on that nipple behind the clutch bearing, but the nipple, pushrod bearing, pushrod are not moving forward. And when I start it, pull on the rock hard clutch lever and try to put it into first, the bike lurches and stalls due to no clutch.

I am at a loss. The clutch was working nicely before I replaced the disc. The discs are identical, just that the new one is 7mm thick and the old, oily one about 5mm.

I put it all back together and parked it until I can figure out what I am doing wrong. Although the fore and aft pressure plates are straight, was thinking of replacing them as well, but don't think the parts cannon is the answer.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, tips, tricks, commiseration.


Daily tip: I did figure out a good way to reinstall the center stand spring is to use a #3 Phillips with a round shank. The #3 tip rests solidly on the center stand spring seat and the spring slides nicely down the round shank. First try!

[malmac]

Removed the transmission for the fourth time today to find what is causing the clutch to not move after replacing the old clutch disc due to slippage. (Found cause of the slippage was the felt around the pushrod had perished, allowing oil to seep down the pushrod and onto the rear clutch surface.)

Put the pushrod in alone to ensure it seated in the square hole. It did. Marked the pushrod with a white pen so I would know when it seated home.

Disassembled the clutch pack again. Was correct. Even tried installing the outer toothed ring backwards from how I had it. Noticed the forward side fits inside the flywheel. Realized it can't be installed backwards. Reassembled the clutch pack centering it on Vech's clutch tool (as I had done the previous three times). Positioned the springs in their pockets and tightened it down with the four long clutch installation screws. Added four clutch screws, replaced the long ones with the remaining four clutch screws and snugged them sequentially to tight.

Changed the felt on the pushrod, reinstalled into gearbox set the gearbox into place and walked the pushrod forward with needle nose pliers until I was sure I found the square hole and pushed it forward until it stopped at my reference mark. Mated the gearbox to engine case and screwed everything down.

Ensured the ball bearing and races behind the pushrod were OK. Put that clutch arm back on, reattached cable and spring.

Clutch still doesn't work.

Checked cable. Was a little stiff so replaced that and adjusted at 10mm nut on clutch arm and then at hand grip.

Still solid as a rock.

Seems that the clutch arm pushes on that nipple behind the clutch bearing, but the nipple, pushrod bearing, pushrod are not moving forward. And when I start it, pull on the rock hard clutch lever and try to put it into first, the bike lurches and stalls due to no clutch.

I am at a loss. The clutch was working nicely before I replaced the disc. The discs are identical, just that the new one is 7mm thick and the old, oily one about 5mm.

I put it all back together and parked it until I can figure out what I am doing wrong. Although the fore and aft pressure plates are straight, was thinking of replacing them as well, but don't think the parts cannon is the answer.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts, tips, tricks, commiseration.


Daily tip: I did figure out a good way to reinstall the center stand spring is to use a #3 Phillips with a round shank. The #3 tip rests solidly on the center stand spring seat and the spring slides nicely down the round shank. First try!

If your bike is a 1954 R67 - would it have a /2 style clutch?

I thought an R67 would have a clutch like this one illustrated - but I never seen an R67 clutch so it might be like the R60 clutch or maybe retro fitted.
It would be nice to see exactly what your clutch looks like.
Just thinking.


Mal

[Kowaltoboggan]

Mal, thanks for posting this diagram. Yes, my clutch is this one in the diagram. It is that old style with the toothed front pressure plate and toothed outer ring.