Slingers

[Allan.Atherton]

... I only have 13K miles, but have no idea how fresh oil was kept, and it was stored forever.The quality of storage is important. The bike in your avatar looks like it was stored in a controlled climate.

I wonder if a cardio surgeon could get a little camera in there to look...You can see the outer edge of the slingers with the pan off. Here's a photo by Bernd Kuepper of what the edge would look like. The surgeon's camera needs to go into the gap indicated, and then turn 180 to look into the lip.

[schrader7032]

Allan -

These are some great photos, which you reference Bernd as the source. The VBMWMO has a link to Bernd's website (I think it's the same one) but I've not been able to find these pictures on his website. Further digging looks like these photos are coming from your website (or really photobucket), but are actually Bernd's photos?? Are Bernd's photos available for general use? I've been keeping up the links on the VBMWMO page and it would be nice to have a link which provides this kind of in depth information on these bikes. They can answer so many questions, as you have just done on being able to inspect the slingers.

Thanks...Kurt in S.A.

[Allan.Atherton]

Bernd used to put photos in the "temp-for-slashers" section on his site, and provide links to them in his postings to the /2 Group. I saved some of the photos, and upload one now and then to my Photobucket site to put up in support of forum discussions.

[tricyclerob]

Maybe I'm dreaming this, but it seems to me that I read an article about early engines with nonexistent or poor filtration systems and nondetergent oils. This was possibly in a "Hemmings".
The basics of the article was that early engines were designed to run with non-detergent motor oils. These oils did not keep particles in suspension as well as modern detergent oils. This let particles settle into the oil pan, which, back in the day, the removal and cleaning of which was part of regular oil changes.
This seemed to make sense. I think I've also read an ad from the manufacturer of motor oils for antique or vintage engines, touting the non-detergent oils,[with other modern additives] for the very same reason.
Just a thought. rj

[Allan.Atherton]

... read an ad from the manufacturer of motor oils for antique or vintage engines, touting the non-detergent oils,[with other modern additives] for the very same reason.
Some vintage riders do use single-weight non-detergent oils. But I don't think the concept of non-detergent oil keeping the slinger clean makes sense for several reasons.
1. It is not likely that in a hot running engine, contaminants and particles are dropped into the pan as soon as they are formed. They circulate in the oil and are subject to the strong centrifugal force of the slingers.
2. When the engine is stopped for a long enough time, the gravity pulls out what little the slingers have not gotten. The slinger centrifuges leave little particulate matter for gravity to work on.
3. Material in the pan is not like the material in the slingers. The material in the pan is soft, while the material in the slingers is hard. I suspect soft material in the pan is chemical compounds formed in the absence of detergents, while the slingers have pulled out any particulate matter that had any weight to it.
4. Detergent oil holds contaminants in suspension not like mud shaken up in water, but by bonding them molecularly to the detergent additives. This molecular bond is so strong, and the materials so fine and weightless, than the bond cannot be broken by the slingers. The materials that are caught by the slingers have mass and weight, and are available because they are too large and heavy to bond to the oil.
5. Slingers are not able to clarify the detergent oil that most of us use. It grows darker and darker as it's additives are loaded up with contaminants. When detergent oil can hold no more contaminants, they will drop into the pan like with non-detergent oil.

[vonkas]

Here's an idea: there is potentially a way to investigate the state of slinger-fill. With oil pan and splash mesh removed you have access to the holes opposite to the oil entry from the slinger disks. You still need at least a small dentist mirror and some light source to view around the 90 degree corner, but there is quite a bit of space. I guess you could examine the hollow crank pin and the oil entry hole and perhaps see deposits of crud. I won't be able to check this until the next major engine job but someone might have a crank lying around to give it a go and let us know.

http://www.space100.com/anabelle/ana.html


i appreciate all the all the tech info about the slingers. the more info we have the more informed...

[vonkas]

thanks Peter, you obviously have some practice with this. I agree with you - your ideas reflects my thoughts. I think the recipe is quite simple: if you buy an old R with an oil slinger engine, don't trust that 'someone' has cleaned/replaced the slingers (unless well documented). You will have to do the job and while you do that you will be able to check/repair everything else in the engine - that's a good thing. Having gone through all this I have decided to stretch the service interval by fitting a filter. After having done 3000 kms I cut the filter apart and investigated with a magnifying glass - the filter is definetely working! Especially in a reconditioned enginge you get a lot of debris at first before things settle in. Anyway, thats my 2 cents! Have a look at my oil filter:

http://www.space100.com/anabelle/ana.html


Well, Im going to put in my two cents so everyone gets cranked (get it?)up again.
When the slinger fills, the problem is not really the suspended particles that now begin to travel down the hollow crank pin with the oil.....Peter N

[Allan.Atherton]

... there is potentially a way to investigate the state of slinger-fill. With oil pan and splash mesh removed you have access to the holes opposite to the oil entry from the slinger disks....
I think you only have access to those holes in either the front or rear slingers if the crank is out of the case like in the photo below. You would need to look into the outer faces, but...
The slingers are flush to the bearings (top arrow) from which they receive oil, and the bearings in their carriers are in the case wall. I don't think there is any room to get any viewing device in between the case wall and the slinger to peer into the outer faces of the slingers. The slingers are so close to the case that if the crank is not installed just right, a slinger will rub the case.
If it is possible to see into a slinger, it would have been done long before now.

[Darryl.Richman]

Allan, I'm pretty sure that Vonkas' idea is to put a mirror up in the area behind the center web, to peek into the crank pin from behind. My memory is fuzzy here, but I think that a lot of the plugs in the back of the crankpins are solid or nearly so. I don't have a crank out to look at, at the moment, but I'll be down at Joe Groeger's shop tomorrow morning and I know he has one up on the runout stand right now...

[Allan.Atherton]

Allan, I'm pretty sure that Vonkas' idea is to put a mirror up in the area behind the center web, to peek into the crank pin from behind. My memory is fuzzy here, but I think that a lot of the plugs in the back of the crankpins are solid or nearly so ...
Oh, to look into the back of a crankpin and see through it into the cupped face of the slinger? The holes in each end are too small.
This is from my R69US. This is the plugged end of the crankpin that faces the slinger and the oil goes in the little hole in the plug. Oil then goes out two tiny holes in the side (one is barely visible at 4 o'clock) and into the rod bearings. Any excess oil escapes out the larger hole in the back end of the crankpin:

This is by Bernd Kuepper of Germany, showing the interior of the crankpin and the plug that is forced into the end facing the slinger:

I failed to continue the cross hatching behind the 18.5mm dimension on this sketch that I did for someone trying to make a crankpin, but it's too much trouble to add it, re-scan and re-upload: