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Engine numbers on an R65?

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Slash2
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Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by Slash2 »

Hey fellas. I went to look at an R65 today and couldn’t find a matching vin number anywhere on the engine. The bike looked immaculate and while I doubt the engine had been changed, I just wanted to verify with the experts whether or not there should be a matching vin somewhere on the block. There is the usual driveshaft number, a number stamped into the frame but no ID tag on the neck and no vin number on the engine that I found. I’ll attach a few photos.

Let me know if I’m not looking in the right place or perhaps the R65 just doesn’t have an engine stamping.
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schrader7032
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by schrader7032 »

The VINs that we do see indicate that it is a 11/84 R65 so an 1985 model. Those numbers you see on the flat pad are of no real help...it might be something for the transmission but more than likely is internal tracking numbers for BMW. It might also be useful to identify if the circlip on the transmission output shaft has been removed or not...that happened with the '85 models until about '94...I think the R65 was also included with that.

As far as I know, the engine VIN is usually stamped next to the oil fill dipstick. I think I looked at an R65 up at my dealer a week ago and immediately went to the dipstick to see the number...I don't remember what year it was though.

Steve will likely be along...he has an '84 R80RT...I'd be curious to see where his stamp is as it would be a bike of the same era.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by Slash2 »

Thanks Kurt. So according to the paperwork the circlip issue had been addressed. Any back story on this? Was this redundant? I have read about models that were built without and some required one be added later but I hadn’t heard of any where the circlips were removed.

As for the dipstick I looked specifically at that area and there was nothing at all. The cases are very bright and in great shape as is the rest of the bike but I crawled all over that thing and could not find an engine stamping anywhere.

Also any thoughts on the missing neck tag? It appeared to have factor plugs in the spots where one would expect to see the ID tag. The frame was clearly stamped to match the vin on the lower rear right section.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by schrader7032 »

Snowbum has a good write up on the circlip:

https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/transmission.htm

A lot there, but the short version that I remember is that someone, maybe a "bean counter" thought they could save some money and eliminate the circlip. What then tended to happen is that the one of the bearings then begins to walk on the shaft and obviously that creates problems. Anton has a good page here, too:

http://largiader.com/articles/circlip/

It's not a bomb waiting to go off but can be monitored and fixed when needed. It does involve opening up the transmission and having the groove cut at the right spot then adding the circlip.

Maybe others that are more familiar with the later bikes can weigh in, but I really thought all Airheads had a number stamped by the dipstick. But now that I look at Snowbum's page here, he says that they stopped that practice in 1984. It's in the section "As-shipped-Bikes":

https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/IDnumbrs.htm

My /7 doesn't have a neck badge. Also something they stopped shortly after the /5s came out...I honestly don't know when they stopped doing that.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by srankin »

Well, Kurt says I will be along, and here I am, bad penny turning up, LOL.

On my R80RT the engine number is stamped next to the oil dipstick/filler. This is also true of my 78 R100RS. I am afraid I don't or haven't come across many R65 bikes personally or at my friend's shop. So what little I know is they are a bit different than similar R bikes in the same era range.

I don't think there would be a serial number corresponding to VIN number stamped anywhere on the transmission, this has never been done on any vehicle I have ever seen, only the engine itself.

The stamped number on the frame should match a white and black sticker on the frame, I see both in the pictures but I can't discern clearly the number in the photo of the stamped frame number to see if the last digits match the sticker.

I can't be certain if at some point BMW stopped putting the riveted plate with the serial number onto the steering head. It is possible the stopped this and plugged the holes. Again, I can't be certain if the frame from a R65 is the same frame as the bigger displacement engine bikes like the R80RT. IF it is, the two holes on the steering head would be mounting holes for the main fairing mount. Makes sense, one frame fitting all bikes the difference being engine size and in the case of the R65 bikes many other things to numerous to mention.

The number on the driveshaft doesn't mean much.

So in the first pictures you have there is a flat spot with a number, sorry I am not 100% certain the area this is? Is it the engine or transmission. To me, it looks like the engine and if so, that is the number I would expect to find stamped next to the oil filler.

Bottom like, if you have a number stamped on the frame as you do, there should be a similar number on the engine. It may not be in the same format exactly, some of the numbers and letters may be left off but at leas the last six or eight numbers should match the number on the frame.

Last thing, I didn't think the continued to make the R65 after the end of 84. 85 Was the introduction of the K bikes and at that time, BMW was serious about dropping the airheads altogether. I thought and I could be wrong the only bikes available after 85 in the airheads were the GS, R80RT, R100RS, and R100RT. I could be wrong. St.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by schrader7032 »

They did seem to build R65 bikes into 1985 as shown on Phil Hawksley's site...I guess these were the twin shocks?

http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/chassispages/e ... sis650.htm

After they probably converted to monolever:

http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/chassispages/e ... s650P2.htm
Kurt in S.A.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by Slash2 »

Hey there Steve. Thanks for chiming in.

So to clarify, we’re not entirely sure if R65’s had engine stampings? That photo with the rectangular metal plate is of the motor and it’s the only real number I could find on the motor itself. Nothing by the filler hole like the 70’s era bikes. The frame stamping and silver badge on the driveshaft both match the title. The black sticker that says “R65 10R-010322” near the neck doesn’t correspond with anything I can see.

The bike is incredibly tidy, shows 7000 miles and certainly appears to be legitimate, but if I can’t verify the originality of the motor, I think I’d be better off letting this one go.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by schrader7032 »

The label by the neck doesn't really mean anything. I tend to go with what Snowbum says that by around 1984, they stopped putting that stamping by the dipstick. I think this may have come about because they finally converted to the 17-digit VIN which you have in several places. Up to that point, the bikes only had the 7-digit number.

That flat plate stamping is on the transmission, right?

Reading more on the transmission stamping on Snowbum's page. Under "Reports", he shows a stamping just like you have. He mentions an example number of "14 847395" and says that indicates it was built in the 14th week of 1984 and the VIN shows a production date of 3/84 so those two match. Your stamping reads "47 840032" if I have that right, so the 47th week of 1984...that certainly suggests that the transmission and frame VIN were produced in 11/1984.

Not sure what to say, but from all that I can see, all these parts go together and likely left the factory that way. If they didn't someone has gone to a lot of work to hide the "real" facts. For years, BMW always (well, usually) had a triple numbers match. But it sure seems like around 1984, they dropped the number stamping on the engine itself.

You said you doubt the engine has been changed...but it sure sounds like you might have changed your thinking. You can only go with what you think. Barring any other 1984 R65 owner stepping up, all you can do is assemble the facts and go with your gut! Good luck.
Kurt in S.A.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by Slash2 »

Hey Kurt,

Sorry for the confusion. The flat plate is on the right lower side of the engine. You can just see the bottom of the pushrod tubes in the upper part of the photo. Other than this plate, no other visible numbers on the block.

So it sounds like no ID tag is correct for this year. The other stampings at least match for the frame and driveshaft. So if the engine’s were not numbered, this bike would be as it left the factory.

The bike was listed at $6800 which is very high for an R65 as far as I’m concerned. He dropped to $5600 which is still a stretch but the fact that it’s practically mint is definitely a factor in the asking price.
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Re: Engine numbers on an R65?

Post by schrader7032 »

OK, Snowbum does show this flat plate area on the front lower part of the engine block. He does say that if a DMV requires an engine number, BMW factory bulletin 2298 says that this top line number can be used as an engine identifier in the absence of any other VIN. So it would seem that the last 7 digits of the longer VIN and the stamping on the lower part of the engine all indicate a later November 1984 build. All that seems kosher.

Can't say much about the price but as you say, maybe it's due to the pristine nature of the bike. Not sure if any goodies come along with the bike and with 7000 miles, guess there's not much maintenance that would have been documented.

So this is a twin shock model? I'm guessing that the valve train might be from the '81-84 period where there were issues with the valve clearances closing up...BMW used the wrong material for the valve seats which didn't transfer heat well. It was fixed in the '85 models...this 11/84 build date suggests an '85 model, but things like this on the cusp are hard to figure out. The issue is not super horrible and can easily be monitored. Typically the issue wouldn't show up until well past 50K miles and was worse on the 1000cc models because they produced more heat. Fix is to have updated valves and seats put in. But people usually do that only when having to do other things at the same time.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

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