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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

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schrader7032
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by schrader7032 »

Carry the particles away and into the main bearings? Doesn't seem like a good idea.

Plus the ball bearing is not going to roll around. It's going to find the low spot and stop. If it encounters some kind of particle, that's going to help it to stop. Or it's going to roll up and over. There's not that much force to keep the ball bearing moving through the bottom of the slinger. Thnk of the dyna balls, a product being touted which is many ceramic balls which are put into an inner tube to balance the tire. They find the light spot and stay there.

You're also talking about adding something which will have an inherent imbalance to it. It might be minimal since it is near the center of rotation of the crank. But still, a built in imbalance.

I think you're trying to engineer away a problem that is not so much of a problem. Use quality oil, change it regularly, and you could probably go 40000 miles before thinking about the slingers. For me, that's going to be a very long time. Plus, there are filter setups current in existence and an filter set up being investigated by Vech for these bikes. The filter is externally applied device and doesn't require dismantling of the engine to put on. That seems like a better way to go.

Probably a host of other things that I can't think of...

Kurt in S.A.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

Allan.Atherton
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Re: Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Allan.Atherton »

... modify the slinger to a self cleaning type... a few ball bearing would be placed in the slinger to freely roll around in the bottom of the slinger... In combination with the high detergent oils and the constant circulation of the balls the base cup would stay clean... The deposit that do settle will hopefully be broken down into smaller particles until they are small enough to be carried away or suspended in the oil....

That is a really interesting idea. I had never heard or thought of it before. It might work in keeping the slingers clean, but I think it would also shorten the life of the main and con rod bearings.

The material in the slingers is sludge and fine grit, and it would not be good for it to remain in the oil. Such material is too coarse and heavy to bond to the detergent additives and become a harmless part of the oil, so if this material was not retained by the slingers, it would circulate as an abrasive.

This is material that must be removed by either the slingers, or by a filter which has been invented in both Germany (Genahl) and Australia (Vonkas/Gibbs).

Ole Guy
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Ole Guy »

How harmful is unfiltered oil? What exactly are these particles?
Steel pieces are captured by strong magnets in the oil pan. Aluminum particles are softer than steel and may be tolerable with frequent oil changes.

Just how much shorter would the mains and con rods bearing be? Would it really be that significant?

I have often wondered just how much harm does unfiltered oil do that is changed every two or three thousand miles. Anybody know what is in used oil after 2 or 3 thousand miles from an engine with magnets in the oil pan?

How about a new engine as oppose to one broken in?

Would the balls have significant movement to be effective? They will be submerged in oil and the movement impeded. I do believe they will continually move as the rpms change. Will that movement do the job? Schrader7032 raised some good points in the second post. Just more ideas to toss around.

I suppose one would have to try this to actually see what happens.
Ole Guy
1954 R51/3

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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by schrader7032 »

I really think that the ball bearings are going to remain in one spot. That's a pretty good bit of centrifugal force throwing them outward. Once they find a spot, I think they stay until the engine stops.

How about calling Vech up and seeing what he thinks?

I think a better or possibly more useful feature is to design the slinger rings so that they can be inspected. Right now, it's impossible because of the fit up. But if you could somehow get in there to see if they need to be changed or not, that would ease people's minds quite a bit.

Kurt in S.A.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

Allan.Atherton
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Allan.Atherton »

How harmful is unfiltered oil? What exactly are these particles? Steel pieces are captured by strong magnets in the oil pan. Aluminum particles are softer than steel and may be tolerable with frequent oil changes. Just how much shorter would the mains and con rods bearing be? Would it really be that significant? I have often wondered just how much harm does unfiltered oil do that is changed every two or three thousand miles. Anybody know what is in used oil after 2 or 3 thousand miles from an engine with magnets in the oil pan?...
I used two super magnets in my oil pans. But I changed the oil between 500 and 1000 miles, depending on color.

With super magnet(s) in the pan to remove steel particles, unfiltered oil would cause less wear. Aluminum and carbon might not affect steel ball and roller bearings, but would still affect the aluminum pistons. As you say, the wear might be insignificant.

But I see some more problems with your idea of balls to agitate the sludge in the slingers, and peripheral drain holes to let the sludge fly out.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roundel/3522128652/

If the peripheral sludge drain holes are big enough so the sludge content of the oil can flow through them without plugging them, the escaping oil will reduce the amount of oil going into the crankpins and rod bearings.

If you don't have the peripheral drain holes, but rely on the balls to prevent sludge from collecting in the periphery, this effect might be the same as full slingers, where the particles flow over and eventually plug up the little holes into the crank pins. But maybe not, because dirty oil might keep flowing through the holes, where the overflow of pure sludge does not.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roundel/438684021/

Ole Guy
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Ole Guy »

Okay one opinion is the balls come to rest in one spot, meaning they will not be an effective means to prevent particle build up. This is a fair point and the only way to find out would be to conduct a test.

The whole point of this discussion is to round up the opinions of what may or may not work. Only a bench test would really answer all the questions. Run a test and see what works or does not.

The particles that collect in the slingers have already passed by the mains and hopefully never reach the rods. Maybe after being run over by the mains they are already rendered harmless. Squeezed flat then only add to the shingling effect, maybe. It would be interesting to examine these particles under high power and see if they are truly and effective abrasive or harmless. Really, what is the effect if left to circulate. What is the quantity in each oil change?

Does anybody have a lab to answer this? What are we really dealing with?
Maybe the slinger rings need to be made deeper to allow them to rack up more miles, say 150,000 or more. Ideally they go as long as the main or rod bearings. Is there room to make them deeper? Would this be a solution?
Ole Guy
1954 R51/3

Allan.Atherton
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Allan.Atherton »

Okay one opinion is the balls come to rest in one spot, meaning they will not be an effective means to prevent particle build up. This is a fair point and the only way to find out would be to conduct a test...
Maybe the slinger rings need to be made deeper to allow them to rack up more miles, say 150,000 or more. Ideally they go as long as the main or rod bearings. Is there room to make them deeper? Would this be a solution?
I don't think the balls would come to rest in one spot. Every start up, every shift, every time the rpms changed, the inertia of the ball bearings in the slinger rim would move them around.
I don't think the slinger diameter can be increased to add sludge capacity because I don't think the slinger can have more diameter than its adjacent web.
Here is the crank without slingers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roundel/98357354/
Here is the crank with slingers:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roundel/303889541/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roundel/3522120832/

Ole Guy
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Ole Guy »

From the photos there is no room to increase the diameter of the slingers.

Do you know what kind of material this slinger crud actually is? I am thinking it is mostly aluminum particles from the piston skirts. Especially if magnets are used to hold steel particles. Is it fair to says the majority of this crud is mostly aluminum?
Ole Guy
1954 R51/3

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schrader7032
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Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by schrader7032 »

Here's what Vech has to say about slingers and what's in them:

http://www.benchmarkworks.com/articles/tech/oil.html

And our own moderator has written about the subject as well:

http://darryl.crafty-fox.com/motorcycles/slingers.htm

My guess is that while magnets can get some of the ferrous material, not all will be captured. The slingers do their job to capture the rest.

Kurt in S.A.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

Ole Guy
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Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:39 pm

Proposal for Self Cleaning Slinger Rings

Post by Ole Guy »

After looking at the photos it is obvious that the particles are plentiful. The photo showing the particles being magnetic, did it come out of an engine equipped with magnets? Would it be magnetic had magnets been used?

I also noticed the overflow of particles in the rod journals and the other photo illustrating a failed rod bearing. The bearing looked to be completely impacted with particles, but I could not be sure.

What caused the bearing failure? Are the passages clogging first or second? I am wondering if the bearing cages first fill with particles that cannot escape then become impacted causing the oil passages to back up and clog second. Can you clarify this? What actually cuts off the oil flow?
Ole Guy
1954 R51/3

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