Why are same vintage HD's worth SO MUCH MORE than BMW's ?

[EuroIron]

I bought a repop "bmw mobile traditions" throttle for a plunger bike from the same

oh wait....... maybe it was a clutch lever perch


having enough originals in my hand to be qualified to say.... guess if was 100% faithful or otherwise?

[Bruce Frey]

On my way to Veterama a couple of years ago, I stopped to see Mark Hugget in Holderbank, CH. Mark supples a lot of parts to Mobil Tradition and also has a large selection of parts for prewar machines. He also has original parts drawings, so when he has a part manufactured, it is as close to an original factory part as possible.

He showed several examples of original drawings, his parts and parts made by other (mostly eastern European) vendors. While the outward appearance is almost the same, there is definitely a difference in quality and usually (but not always) in price. Without having a factory drawing or an original part to compare it to, you cannot accurately judge the quality of a reproduction.

My R12 is almost 100% original and has given me the opportunity to compare original parts with the eastern European reproductions. Most of it is reverse engineered crap by comparison and usually requires a lot of fitting. Sometimes, however, there are no other sources and the Eastern Europeans often provide something that no on else offers.

Last year, I was installing a eastern Euro repop clutch lever that I purchased at Veterama 5 or so years ago on my R6. I dropped it and it cracked! I quickly trashed it and its brake lever mate as well as the perches and replaced it with Huggett parts. You usually get what you pay for.

With the CHF almost at parity with the USD, buying from Switzerland is painful, but when I buy reproduction parts today, my money goes to Mark (or Vech, who stocks Mark's parts) unless there are no other options.

EI and others who follow different marques, how faithful to original parts are the current reporduction parts for vintage and antique American and British iron? Where are the parts made?

Bruce

[EuroIron]

repop American parts are made everywhere including third world Asian countries........ and you are lucky if you get what you pay for

as in will that Asian repop hinged rear fender even bolt on?

just like buying a Polish repop fender for a BMW and on and on


but.......... the guys who have written books certainly point out the differences in original and repops

and have no conflicting financial interests

it's a shame those repoping parts seemingly seem to be unsuccessful in locating known good originals to reverse engineer/design their repops too

CMM's become much more affordable every day and plenty of highly capable tool & die shops sit idle as this is typed

within 25 miles of me, and I live in the middle of nowhere

there are no less than 35 shops that have exotic equipment like CMM's four and five axis machining centers, sinker EDM's and so on

even home type shops no less

the real shame is that so few people know the difference

upon what do I base this observation?

the sheer numbers of people to whom I've sold original stuff only after they've purchased repops and found them to be unfaithful and unsatisfactory

only then were they willing to pay for original stuff even if it was somewhat battered or showing it's age

I'll say I'd be a lot less jaded if those selling repop parts actually showed brutally honest pix of their products right next to known good originals

I wouldn't have bought the few pieces I have had I known they were different


the BMW folks seem much more gentlemenly and tight lipped about this than the HD crowd

when a bad repop that won't slide past a competent show judge or restorer becomes available

it doesn't take long before everyone into HD knows

wanna see some rusty stuff turn into money?

check out my up coming pan and knuckle head HD listings

I'd trade a whole semi load of pre69 BMW stuff for a couple pick up truck loads of old enough American iron

[EuroIron]

and I have one more question

how many frame and engine stamp sets have left the factory and are in private hands?


and I know for sure there are people restamping both frame and engines

as in forging R68 and R69S bikes

who knows about the prewar stuff

I wouldn't even buy a R68 or R69S bike, for real money anyhow, that couldn't prove it's lineage all the way back to when it left the motherland without some serious scientific testing of the numbers

and I have some very excellent photo-documentation of why I am of this opinion

not to mention things that have jumped into my attentive ears

[Bruce Frey]

how many frame and engine stamp sets have left the factory and are in private hands?

I know for sure there are people restamping both frame and engines


While I have no absolute, conclusive proof, I would be willing to bet a LOT of money that prewar bikes are being restamped at that there are at least 2 or more original or very good copies of the stamps, including the BMW rondel in Europe. It would be nice to know how many sets the factory had and what happened to them.

I know my way around the bikes that I have (R12, R5, R6, R71) and their sisters (R17, R51, R61 and R66) and am somewhat conversant about most of the other prewar twins, but with the amount of reproduction parts available and the stamp issue, I would be afraid to buy a flat tank (R47-R63) bike without knowing its history for more than 10 years. You can almost build one of these bikes from repops Unfortunately, finding a prewar bike with provenance is rare.

Definitely, Caveat Emptor!

Bruce

[EuroIron]

now therein lies yet another very serious issue with the values of these machines.......

for years any reasonably competent LEO has been very well versed in HD stamps and would seize a HD that even had anything remotely looking like a sand mark anywhere around the number pad.........

so......... so very many astute investors are quite familiar with the myriad of fonts and belly pan numbers

the MoCo also has very good archives and can disclose all the numerical info for most any given bike including numbering flukes


the BMW's and many many many other Euro bikes are pretty much still under the radar but

I suspect that one or two more upwardly mobile and politically well connected person get their shorts put on when such a felony occurs.......

and that situation will change

sucks and nobody dislikes LEO much more than me but it will help bolster investor confidence and therefore increase the value of the legit desirable bikes as well as those further down the food chain

heck, I've never been pulled over by a officer that had a clue where the frame numbers on a feathebed are supposed to be much less what they should look like........ and I can name several many others but BMW's certainly are included

just the suggestion that a BMW is indeed titled by it's engine case would be enough to stop any further poking by an officer that had never owned one and knew better

seen it with my own eyes

Once a few more people really start looking and cry foul... many other bikes, including forged BMW's will be seen being hauled away from shows swinging from the back of a boom pole wrecker

I can't count how many HD's I've seen seized while watching blatantly and poorly forged euro bikes/parts sell at both swap meets and even on ebay in front of the whole world

anther interesting thing is.............. I have enough frames in one pile to substantiate the existence of several legit number fonts for the 48 and later stuff

Wallaman looked at one matching numbers bike I have and was instantly convinced it had been expertly re-stamped until we started digging thru and found the exact same font on another

not to mention me finding the original German papers sometime later which originated from the purchaser of the bike when new

and the differences just damned near require a linen loupe to distinguish

found both different numerical fonts and even different roundels....... I'd be willing to bet most BMW enthusiasts aren't aware such exists for the post war stuff

I've never seen it discussed and maybe I've missed that being pointed out in many of the books I skimmed thru

all the info for correct HD numbers stamping has been well documented and published

which is why a numbers side only case for even a lowly panhead, flathead, or knuck will fetch more than many BMW guys will give for a basket bmw

not uncommon to see a numbers side pan case fetch 2500 to 3500 and the same for a knuck fetch 4000 to 6000

crazy huh?

the pre-70 HD frames never carried stamped VIN numbers....... only tell tale date codes and various tab/mount/casting changes throughout the years

anyhow....... the HD guys are quite familiar with the numerous forms of numbers verification/scientific testing and acid testing is only a joke for detecting rookie greenhorn numbers jobs

I just wonder how many forged R90S bike exist........ and why are they often worth more than a supremely eclectic and rare plunger or prewar bike?

totally irrational

I'd be willing to bet there are many, I've seen a few that if they weren't number jobs......... somebody at the factory was having a really bad couple of weeks

[niall4473]

Had to chuckle to myself whilst reading the above about people going to great lengths to fraudulently restamp frame numbers and misrepresent bikes to the authorities, since I am at the moment currently in dispute with the UK Vehicle Licensing Agency about this exact issue, but in a mirror image. Here's the story:-

I'm trying to get papers for a 1958 R60 rebuilt from a basket case. I have an accredited dating letter from BMW and a copy of the original Stockport registration dated 5th December 1958. The problem is at some time in the past, the logbook (title) has got separated from the remains of the bike and some character has used the registration on another bike, (built from parts, stolen, illegally imported in the back of a lorry, who knows?), and at some point THAT bike has been written off (wrecked, scrapped, whatever), now the authorities refuse to accept that my bike exists, even though their inspector has examined it and accepted that the frame number is original and untampered with, (interestingly Euro, he brought a file with him containing instructions where to find the numbers, and what they should look like, this can only have come from BMW) and now they will only register the bike if I agree to GRIND OFF the original frame number and stamp in its place a 16 character VIN which they have issued. It would have to be registered as a 'composite' of 'indeterminate age'. They are unwilling to listen to my argument that this will make the bike worthless and unsaleable, and impossible for any future owner to order spares for. I am currently appealing, but will lose, and probably have to break the bike up and scrap the frame rather than sell the bike complete and running for less than it cost me to rebuild it. The joke is that I recently got papers for a 1964 R60/2 imported from Germany in 1975 purely on the strength of the Fahrzugbrief (German Logbook) and Customs Clearance, the authorities never even bothered to check that it existed!

[EuroIron]

sounds like an uphhill battle to me and bummer........

possible to shuffle it out of the country?

[saintclair2703]

"although most here would refer to me as a kid "

If you'd stop sucking your thumb and wear pants when you answer a knock, that may improve.

The burning question I have is;
What genious made the sliders on the side and bottom the same colour as the background. ? Forums for old wads should be old wad friendly. Pretty soon I'm going to learn how to type while holding a magnifying glass.

Getting to the original question- the difference is culture. Americans go to a square dance sober. Germans have to get drunk to do that. Americans are boisterous and rowdy and (used to) jump in the car with a 6-pack.

Consequently, the advertising is all different. American bikes show pictures of boys and girls having fun. Dresses blowing in the wind, folks with rosy cheeks waving at the reader of the magazine, bright colours.
From Germany you got very serius guys bent over serious-looking bikes in races. They were were doing a job (which they were, in fact). No fun- work. Americans rowdy and fun / Germans intellectual and grim.

Secondly, BMW's pretty much got here before the japanes bikes did- and WWII was still VERY fresh in people's minds. I think the was a signifigant amount of anti-German sentiment. Even many years later, I've met people who thought BMW were against the law to own ( ! ).

Last- BMW's were expensive. So- by the mid-60's, only intellectuals without a clue bought a BMW. College professors and suburbanites who had local contests to see who could come up with the coolest stuff.
Being a dumb kid, I was taken for a ride on an R60 and knew instantly that I was going to own one ASAP. What a magnificent experience!
But- even Mr EuroIron will testy -uh- testify to, I'm a bitter and very lonely person.

[jeff dean]

I learned some time ago that my knowledge base of old BMWs is far too limited to assess pre-war motorcycles. You have to know a lot more than I do to evaluate an allegedly "original" prewar BMW competently.

Therefore, for my own self-respect, I will not touch one.

I stick with 1951-1969 BMWs, thank you.