Why are same vintage HD's worth SO MUCH MORE than BMW's ?

[jeff dean]

Perhaps this could be an enlightening discussion.

I have several notions but it basically boils down to BMW owners and enthusiasts being their own worst enemies when it comes to truly establishing these fine bikes' actual worth.

Check out this:

http://tinyurl.com/6xmh94

And then this:

http://tinyurl.com/6m6rch

You ask why? Because of the "Harley mystique" and popularity, and the Motor Company's amazing marketing successes. I have other opinions, but I don't want to be insulting to Harley owners.

I think that the only BMW that might rival old Harleys for price would be a perfect, completely original R32.

BTW, a 1939 Crocker sold at the same auction for $230,000.

If you want to see a really high price that makes the Crocker look cheap, check out July 12, 2008 California MidAmerica Auction at the Monterey Conference Center on Portola Plaza. A 1915 Cyclone for $520,000 (not a typo - over half a million dollars); a 1915 Pope for $82,500; a 1910 Harley 6A for $61,500.

Personally I would prefer a perfect R32 or I might settle for an R63. A cherry R69 might be nice

[EuroIron]

although most here would refer to me as a kid

I've made my living in the mc business for many years and have been around long enough to have purchased running original panheads for 2gs that would fetch 10 times or more than that today

human nature aside....... and believe me I'd rather deal with Kmart Hondachopper guys than many of the BMW guys I've met.......

the one huge thing that I see as "the happening" with all the American Iron that just hasn't happened with the Kraut stuff...... and probably never will

was the publication of many very useful and highly informative books which shared all the knowledge previously held by only a few

not to discredit anyone's work but

but if the Slabon restoration guide is the best thing out there for vintage BMW enthusiasts

folks can simply give up on these bikes ever being worth half a same vintage HD regardless which one is the better and more useful motorcycle


amazing that nobody has even documented the differences between orginal stuff and repop stuff from all the various suppliers, including mobile traditions

I can sell a whipped piece of original American tin for many times more than a comparable distinguishable repop from BMW will bring and in most cases...... there isn't enough discernment on the behalf of what seem like many uninformed lemmings to know the difference between original and repop

the supply of repop parts for the American stuff is wildly vast compared to the Kraut stuff

yet I am quite certain that in nearly all instances

beat up original always commands higher prices than repop....... regardless of the quality of the repop

same for the Brit stuff too

I can't say I've ever seen a R32 but I'll go hunting

[schrader7032]

the one huge thing that I see as "the happening" with all the American Iron that just hasn't happened with the Kraut stuff...... and probably never wil

was the publication of many very useful and highly informative books which shared all the knowledge previously held by only a few

There are a number of books available, I think, that provide an insight on how/what/who went into making these BMWs. Maybe you've heard of them...you only mention Slabon's book. No single person is going to know everything there is about everything that went down. Even Fred Jacobs at BMW wasn't there from the beginning; he can only interpret what he reads from the archives.

Other books that I've purchased have helped to give me a broader understanding of the BMW marque. There are others I'm sure...when I find something with a different slant, I usually buy it. Books like:

BMW Mobile Tradition, "Profiles, Motorcycles from Munich 1923-1969"

BMW Mobile Tradition, "Profiles, Motorcycles from Berlin 1969-1998"

Andy Schwietzer, "BMW Motorcycles from 1969 to 1985, Volume 1 Airheads with Twin Shocks"

Ian Falloon, "Original BMW Air-Cooled Boxer Twins 1950-1996"

Ian Falloon, "BMW Boxer Twins"

L.J.K. Setright, "Bahnstormer, The Story of BMW Motorcycles"

They each have a different take and perspective. Taken together, they begin to build some of the background of the thinking and details of BMW motorcycles.

Kurt in S.A.

[EuroIron]

I have seen several of those books and there isn't one that I feel remotely compares with the better American iron publications much less being absolutely authoritative on even one single model of BMW motorcycle......

did I miss that when skimming thru a few of those?

I've taken thousands of very detailed photographs of the many items I've sold and there are so many minute and subtle variations it's almost beyond belief.


I also have to really wonder by an earls fork bike is valued more highly than the plunger framed bikes...... now that is beyond any rational ability to comprehend.

Heck, they are stone ugly.

[Darryl.Richman]

My take on it is that:

a) BMW didn't have an official importer to the US until 1955. Before that, there were only gray market imports, and even then they were very sporadic. Hence, the reason the /2s are so popular here, that's what was being imported when people here first saw a BMW motorcycle.

b) Baby boomer nostalgia. The same thing that makes old Chevy sedans worth a ton of money makes old Panheads worth a ton of money. There aren't a lot of Jeff Deans around who needed to have a BMW motorcycle when they were in their formative years. Instead, they craved a Harley or Indian that their older brother or uncle or father had.

c) There's no replacement for displacement. BMWs were (and still are, there are many examples on current models) built for the riding environment in Europe and specifically in Germany. If there was a licensing or insurance break for a certain size or horsepower limit in Germany, BMW made a model to fit it. And with the compact size of Europe, were there are few open roads comparable to the midwest and west here, handling had a much higher emphasis than brute strength. So BMW didn't make a bike as big as the entry 883 Harley until 1974.

d) Utility vs. Sport. Henry Ford killed off the utility motorcycle market in the US very early on. By the 1920s, there were only a handful of producers left, and they knew that "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday". But in Europe and Germany, in that era, there were hundreds of producers with local followings. From Adler to Zuendapp, with DKW, D-Rad, Horex, Imperia, Neander, NSU, Opel, Puch, Triumph (TWN), Victoria, and Wanderer in between, there were tons of makers. BMW themselves survived the 50s by making police and ADAC bikes, but it was a narrow thing because what happened in the US in the 20s happened in Germnay in the late 50s -- the population could finally afford to buy a car and get out of the weather.

e) Sprechen Sie Deutsch? The language barrier is huge. BMW made up some translations of their owners manuals pretty early on, for bikes going to the UK. But the Ersatzteilelisten (parts books) were strictly auf deutsch. Americans are a pretty monolingual bunch, and I can tell you from personal experience that German is not a particularly easy language to pick up. Even today, if you want to buy prewar parts or get some service done, you need to have ein bischen deutsch. A related factor is that lots of the parts and services we want and need are really only available across the pond, which adds a hefty shipping bill to those items priced in Euros.

So, I think it's pretty much apples to oranges.

BTW, the R32 is not that uncommon. Pick up an R37 if you can.

[Bruce Frey]

I have been involved with old BMWs since 1999 when I lived in Barcelona and Germany has always been the most expensive place to buy a prewar or vintage BMW (or old MB, NSU, etc.), even without today's currency imbalance. The last 3 years or so have seen a BIG jump in the prices of most prewar BMW in Euros, which has been magnified by the Euro/USD exchange rate. If you are USD denominated, buying ANYTHING from abroad is tough. Today, there are a lot of cars and bikes making their way from the USA to Europe.

While I think the gap between BMW and HD (and Indian, Henderson, Excelsior, etc) is less in Europe than the USA, it still exists. When I went to my first Veterama, I was shocked to see the amount of prewar American iron that was there. Europe was a surprisingly large market for American bikes in the 20s and 30s and they still have a big, almost cult, following. Local products were considered as transportation or sport toys, but big V twin, American iron was considered rare and exotic.

I have not followed what books are available for old American bikes, but there is no published information that I have found that covers specific details of prewar BMWs. The best way I have found is getting copies of the different versions of the Ersatzteillistes and comparing them part by part, but there are mistakes in those, too. Unfortunately, not all parts are illustrated. Sometimes it gives the production numbers for when the changes were made. You can also tell by the part numbers if there was a previous version of the part. Unless you have an original part to compare it to, however, it is sometimes difficult or impossible to tell real from reproduction. For me, this is a hobby, not a business and I enjoy the historical aspects of these old bikes as much as the riding and wrenching.

I started riding a 90cc Honda in 1965 as transportation in high school. My classmates who were into motorcyles drove a variety of British bikes. I can't remember when I saw my first BMW, but it never made an impression. At that time, HDs were associated with gangs and the 2% group, so while nobody drove one, a lot of people WANTED one. I think that explains a lot of their popularity with those > 50 years old along with the fact that Dad probably drove one before the war.

/2 have never been of particular interest to me (EI is right, I think they are muy feo, too), but I think their value will continue to increase. They will, however, never take the place of big American made V twins in the hearts or wallets of most Americans.

That is my €.02.

ciao,

Bruce

[jeff dean]

Thank you Darryl and Bruce for your very thoughtful comments.

Trying to capture aspects of your youth is so true. I can still see in my mind's eye that slash-2 on campus that so affected me around 1959. It was so beautiful and so unlike the other motorcycles of the day. It drew me in. And, as Darryl notes, my experience then was apparently very rare if not unique.

Others, in droves, had similar experiences about Harleys, apparently, which likely helps drive their prices up today.

[niall4473]

Very interesting thread, Euro, particularly when viewed from this angle.

The obvious, trite, but nevertheless true answer to the question must be, 'because people are prepared to pay so much more', but of course what we are discussing is why that should be so.
I think it would be foolish to overlook the effect of millions of dollars worth of advertising spent by H-D to persuade people that their current products are part of a great tradition (most notably seen in their centenary year when they were claiming to be the worlds oldest motorcycle manufacturer!!), this has been immensely successful and has dragged the price of the old ones up alongside. Over here the Hinckley Triumphs have had the same effect on the Meriden ones so that now, ten-a-penny T120s and TR6s are worth more than KSSs and Rudge Ulsters or the real handbuilt quality 1960s machines like Venoms and, yes, Earles Fork BMWs, which are extremely rare here anyway, the R60 having been twice the price of the aforementioned TR6 in 1960.
Old Harleys and Indians apart from WLCs and 741Bs are very rarely seen
and when they are, are usually recent imports from the US so that may be another factor in the price of them over there.
I don't know about over there but here BMW have always had an image problem in that many motorcyclists consider BMWs as bikes for rich hoorays and, I'm sorry to say, many BMW riders consider themselves a cut above ordinary dirty-fingernailed riders. This image sells a lot of new bikes for them, but when you're an ordinary dirty-fingernailed rider on an old BMW it puts you a bit out in the cold sometimes.
It would be interesting to know what sort of people are paying these inflated prices? Riders or Investors?
By the way fellas, what price are you paying for fuel at the moment? Here 94 Octane unleaded is £1.17/litre ($8.79/US gallon).

[EuroIron]

I paid 3.61 yesterday...........

when I had most of a R66 here, there was a certain very helpful gent that has restored a few of them.......

almost like magic

any part I needed ID, he had excellent pix of them and could readily note details from one year to the next

now I'm thinking that if such a person were to publish some model specfic books

prewar or otherwise

such publications and especially if the repop stuff was compared

would be a huge help in leveling the playing field

and maybe somebody should produce a big bore kit for the 50 and later boxers and without a doubt such a kit could be made available for under 750 USD

very simple castings and very simple machine work

but bigger displacement only means more shaking and no more speed without taller gearing


if some of you guys get bored

go take a look at just how many very very very informative and useful books are to be had for restoring American, British and even Italian stuff

none of which are transportation equals

I'd never dream of kidding myself into thinking my 47 knuck or 48 pan will sustain with any well prepped 50 and later boxer

my flatties.......... yeah they will and may even last longer since they don't have any goofiness going on inside the crank in the name of oil filtering

you guys sitting on or holding vasts collections need to get busy finding/helping somebody writing several good books with some useful photographic info of these bits and all their differences

again I have thousands of pix and after about the first thousand

I decided I never cared one bit about even attempting to work towards any level of expertise

since I've seen too many of the alleged experts strongly disagree with each other over details which truly should not remotely be esoteric

[schrader7032]

I understand that Vech started a restoration book...he's hip deep in actually working on bikes and his business so the book is on the back burner.

I also understand that Chris at Barrington Motor Works is working on a /2 restoration manual. He has info on his website:

http://www.barringtonmotorworks.com/gal ... =14&gid=94

Kurt in S.A.