1) Good question...I wouldn't think so...I don't know much about this type of welding. Electricity might screw up the magnet...heat shouldn't...
2) Typically the spark should NOT jump the safety gap. If it is, then the ignition system is finding that to be the path of least resistance. Gap should be 10mm...smaller and there will be a tendency to jump the gap. If there's something wrong with the plugs/wires, the gap would be the way out.
3) I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the advance collar. Once installed, nothing moves parallel with the camshaft that I can think of.
It's been a while since I read Vech's article...but the key thing to remember is that aligning the magneto and setting the timing are two separate steps. I know Vech doesn't say this, but there's bad information out there about how to adjust the points that says to adjust the magneto body to do that. That's incorrect. The magneto and the timing are both set while the engine is at the S-mark, but the adjustments for each use two different adjusters.
Have you tried putting a timing light on the engine when/if running to see what might be happening. Popping and backfiring suggests that the ignition timing is not right. A good spark when you kick it tends to suggest that the magneto is probably set right.
Kurt in S.A.
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Magneto stuff - help with R60US
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schrader7032
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Magneto stuff - help with R60US
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
Thanks Kurt - the safety gap is set to 10mm. The spark doesn't jump all the time but it is arcing about every 3 to 4 seconds when I get the RPM's up. I think I am doing the static timing correctly. I haven't really found a good article that talks about it. My confusion lies as to what I should see in the engine window at what point. Does the spark fire at exactly TDC (when you see the "S" mark in the window) when doing the static timing?
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
the magnets I use on my welding table don't last too long, even the ones that are specifically for welding.... the neo dy magnets are typically good for just a couple of uses
good thing I seldom use them since most of the welding I do is stainless and occasionally some Ti........... playdough and heavy aluminum foil keeps right on trucking until it gets roasted
copied and pasted from the supplied link and I didn't read it completely to see if this applies to the magnets in question
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... at=1,42363
Materials Used to Make Magnets
The rare-earth magnets currently available at the retail level are made of neodymium iron boron (NdFeB). Only three elements are ferromagnetic at room temperature; these are iron, cobalt and nickel. Virtually all other elements increase permanence (coercivity), but any magnet must contain one of the base three to work. The four main magnet types used today are ceramic, alnico, neodymium, and samarium cobalt.
An alnico magnet is made of aluminum, nickel and cobalt. These can be cast (melted, then shaped in a mold) or sintered (fused together by heat and pressure). A magnet that is cast has better magnetic properties than one that is sintered. Although this material can lose its magnetic properties if dropped or struck, the advantage of an alnico magnet is that it can endure temperatures up to 550° C.
Ceramic magnets are quite hard and brittle. They are made of strontium ferrite and iron oxide, mixed into a ceramic base. For applications under 300° C, these have lower energy than the other types of magnets, but resist corrosion and demagnetization. Their main advantage is that they are inexpensive.
Neodymium has one of the highest magnetic properties of any magnetic alloy. Although it is the magnet to use for high-strength applications, one of its drawbacks is that it cannot be used where it will be exposed to temperatures higher than 150° C, or it will demagnetize.
For high-temperature applications, magnets made of samarium cobalt are used. Even though samarium cobalt is not quite as strong as neodymium, this member of the rare-earth family can withstand temperatures up to 300° C.
The different types of materials used increase the versatility of magnets. The characteristics of each make it possible to find a magnet suitable for just about any application, from keeping a calendar posted in the shop to ensuring there are no nuts and bolts in industrially processed food.
perhaps of interest as well.............
http://tinyurl.com/2atrkh
good thing I seldom use them since most of the welding I do is stainless and occasionally some Ti........... playdough and heavy aluminum foil keeps right on trucking until it gets roasted
copied and pasted from the supplied link and I didn't read it completely to see if this applies to the magnets in question
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... at=1,42363
Materials Used to Make Magnets
The rare-earth magnets currently available at the retail level are made of neodymium iron boron (NdFeB). Only three elements are ferromagnetic at room temperature; these are iron, cobalt and nickel. Virtually all other elements increase permanence (coercivity), but any magnet must contain one of the base three to work. The four main magnet types used today are ceramic, alnico, neodymium, and samarium cobalt.
An alnico magnet is made of aluminum, nickel and cobalt. These can be cast (melted, then shaped in a mold) or sintered (fused together by heat and pressure). A magnet that is cast has better magnetic properties than one that is sintered. Although this material can lose its magnetic properties if dropped or struck, the advantage of an alnico magnet is that it can endure temperatures up to 550° C.
Ceramic magnets are quite hard and brittle. They are made of strontium ferrite and iron oxide, mixed into a ceramic base. For applications under 300° C, these have lower energy than the other types of magnets, but resist corrosion and demagnetization. Their main advantage is that they are inexpensive.
Neodymium has one of the highest magnetic properties of any magnetic alloy. Although it is the magnet to use for high-strength applications, one of its drawbacks is that it cannot be used where it will be exposed to temperatures higher than 150° C, or it will demagnetize.
For high-temperature applications, magnets made of samarium cobalt are used. Even though samarium cobalt is not quite as strong as neodymium, this member of the rare-earth family can withstand temperatures up to 300° C.
The different types of materials used increase the versatility of magnets. The characteristics of each make it possible to find a magnet suitable for just about any application, from keeping a calendar posted in the shop to ensuring there are no nuts and bolts in industrially processed food.
perhaps of interest as well.............
http://tinyurl.com/2atrkh
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
well if you are jumping the safety gap
you do have a secondary ignition problem
make sure you have copper core wires
measure for zero resistance from the wire's terminal end to the plug cap
if you have resistor caps
remove them and wire straight to the plug if you don't have a local shop that has the 3-7 buck nonresistor wire ends
and not a bad idea to replace the plugs as you could very well have one with internal damage.......... and by all means
for the purpose of finding the high resistance in your ignition secondary
gap the plugs down to say........... 15 thou
you need to eliminate that jumping across the safety gap although 3/8 open air "safety gap" really puts into perspective how anemic these magnetos truly are
I have FM and Mallory magnetos that will easily and happily jump a heart stopping fat blue arc over 1 inch in open air
never tested a known good BMW magneto with the "safety gap" eliminated to see how much spunk they really have
probably be a good idea for somebody with a new rotor and coil to try and see
and at the same time, do a valid scientific test on a ferrous metal "tool", simply a piece of metal stock milled with the same radius as the rotor and perhaps a easy method of attaching additional weights, to see just how much strength a known good magneto rotor should have as well as test some that "just work" and some that "no longer cut the mustard"
you do have a secondary ignition problem
make sure you have copper core wires
measure for zero resistance from the wire's terminal end to the plug cap
if you have resistor caps
remove them and wire straight to the plug if you don't have a local shop that has the 3-7 buck nonresistor wire ends
and not a bad idea to replace the plugs as you could very well have one with internal damage.......... and by all means
for the purpose of finding the high resistance in your ignition secondary
gap the plugs down to say........... 15 thou
you need to eliminate that jumping across the safety gap although 3/8 open air "safety gap" really puts into perspective how anemic these magnetos truly are
I have FM and Mallory magnetos that will easily and happily jump a heart stopping fat blue arc over 1 inch in open air
never tested a known good BMW magneto with the "safety gap" eliminated to see how much spunk they really have
probably be a good idea for somebody with a new rotor and coil to try and see
and at the same time, do a valid scientific test on a ferrous metal "tool", simply a piece of metal stock milled with the same radius as the rotor and perhaps a easy method of attaching additional weights, to see just how much strength a known good magneto rotor should have as well as test some that "just work" and some that "no longer cut the mustard"
-
schrader7032
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Magneto stuff - help with R60US
My confusion lies as to what I should see in the engine window at what point. Does the spark fire at exactly TDC (when you see the "S" mark in the window) when doing the static timing?
The plug should fire as the points open which should be at the S-mark... TDC is some 6 degrees after the S-mark. The S-mark leads the TDC point so that the firing can take place and get the fuel burning as the crank rounds the top of the stroke and starts back down. If the spark fires at TDC, then the energy will be lost, some of it going out the opening exhaust valve. Possibly the reason you're getting backfiring out the exhaust??
Kurt in S.A.
The plug should fire as the points open which should be at the S-mark... TDC is some 6 degrees after the S-mark. The S-mark leads the TDC point so that the firing can take place and get the fuel burning as the crank rounds the top of the stroke and starts back down. If the spark fires at TDC, then the energy will be lost, some of it going out the opening exhaust valve. Possibly the reason you're getting backfiring out the exhaust??
Kurt in S.A.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
Hey all, I think I have this figured out. Going with the assumption that the welding heat damaged the magnet I took the magnet off and held it up to my TV set (standard picture tube type). This allowed me to see the magnetic field of the magnet and it is uneven 
. It looks like the welding damaged the polarity of the magnets. In talking to a local magneto shop they said they might be able to re-polarize the magnet so I am going to give that a try. If it works I'll let you know. This could be a great way to revive an old magneto at a low cost.
. It looks like the welding damaged the polarity of the magnets. In talking to a local magneto shop they said they might be able to re-polarize the magnet so I am going to give that a try. If it works I'll let you know. This could be a great way to revive an old magneto at a low cost.-
Allan.Atherton
- Posts: 503
- Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:00 am
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
... the magnetic field of the magnet... is uneven... It looks like the welding damaged the polarity of the magnets. In talking to a local magneto shop they said they might be able to re-polarize the magnet so I am going to give that a try. If it works I'll let you know. This could be a great way to revive an old magneto at a low cost.
The magnet is permanent and cannot be re-polarized. I tried using a local FBO shop. But some say it can be super-charged to a higher state of magnetism that is quickly lost unless the magnet is re-contained within the magneto body or equivalent protection.
I think you could be off on a tangent.
How could heat affect the magnet?
Did the welding heat the magnet hotter than a hot engine?
What does an "uneven" field look like, and how do you know that is not the normal look?
How could an uneven field, or a weak field, cause backfiring and popping?
Does not the ability to force the spark across a 10mm safety gap show the magneto system is strong?
If you have misfiring, with sparks crossing the safety gap instead of going to the plugs, does that not indicate a problem with the plugs, caps or wires? How about replacing them.
The magnet is permanent and cannot be re-polarized. I tried using a local FBO shop. But some say it can be super-charged to a higher state of magnetism that is quickly lost unless the magnet is re-contained within the magneto body or equivalent protection.
I think you could be off on a tangent.
How could heat affect the magnet?
Did the welding heat the magnet hotter than a hot engine?
What does an "uneven" field look like, and how do you know that is not the normal look?
How could an uneven field, or a weak field, cause backfiring and popping?
Does not the ability to force the spark across a 10mm safety gap show the magneto system is strong?
If you have misfiring, with sparks crossing the safety gap instead of going to the plugs, does that not indicate a problem with the plugs, caps or wires? How about replacing them.
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
... the magnetic field of the magnet... is uneven... It looks like the welding damaged the polarity of the magnets. In talking to a local magneto shop they said they might be able to re-polarize the magnet so I am going to give that a try. If it works I'll let you know. This could be a great way to revive an old magneto at a low cost.
The magnet is permanent and cannot be re-polarized. I tried using a local FBO shop. But some say it can be super-charged to a higher state of magnetism that is quickly lost unless the magnet is re-contained within the magneto body or equivalent protection.
Sure it can be regaussed......... and any of them will loose their strength if not properly stored in ferrous metal "clamshells", all the new replacement magnetic rotors I've ever bought and sold came to me in such devices......... regardless if for a magneto or alternator, "storing them in their assembly....... ie stator or Mu Metal Magneto body doth suffice as well
I think you could be off on a tangent.
agreed
How could heat affect the magnet?
Did the welding heat the magnet hotter than a hot engine?
very possible, see the above link or do some googling, I've no idea what was done with the welder or what level of heat it sustained or for how long and prior I had always though the intense magnetic field from welding is what actually ruined my collection of magnets........ the same field that makes less than solidly anchored parts tremor on the table like a nervous virgin right before being cured of her selfish ailment, I do agree that blaming the heat as opposed to the magnetic fields involved in welding is counter-intuitive...... but I believe it after doing some research and glad my neo-dy rotor'd mags never get so warm you can't hold your hand on them
What does an "uneven" field look like, and how do you know that is not the normal look?
How could an uneven field, or a weak field, cause backfiring and popping?
interesting experiment and excellent question..... a combination of which that could be turned into a valid benchmark testing of a rotor for actual strength, have to standardize and maybe have an old 15 inch monitor around and simply photograph known good and bad patterns for comparison....... possible although not as direct as actually testing with a standardized fitted test weight(s)
Does not the ability to force the spark across a 10mm safety gap show the magneto system is strong?
If you have misfiring, with sparks crossing the safety gap instead of going to the plugs, does that not indicate a problem with the plugs, caps or wires? How about replacing them.
there certainly is excessive resistance in the secondary....... that is very obvious and if all the magneto has to have is enough spunk to jump that tiny safety gap........ then for sure the magneto is strong enough
The magnet is permanent and cannot be re-polarized. I tried using a local FBO shop. But some say it can be super-charged to a higher state of magnetism that is quickly lost unless the magnet is re-contained within the magneto body or equivalent protection.
Sure it can be regaussed......... and any of them will loose their strength if not properly stored in ferrous metal "clamshells", all the new replacement magnetic rotors I've ever bought and sold came to me in such devices......... regardless if for a magneto or alternator, "storing them in their assembly....... ie stator or Mu Metal Magneto body doth suffice as well
I think you could be off on a tangent.
agreed
How could heat affect the magnet?
Did the welding heat the magnet hotter than a hot engine?
very possible, see the above link or do some googling, I've no idea what was done with the welder or what level of heat it sustained or for how long and prior I had always though the intense magnetic field from welding is what actually ruined my collection of magnets........ the same field that makes less than solidly anchored parts tremor on the table like a nervous virgin right before being cured of her selfish ailment, I do agree that blaming the heat as opposed to the magnetic fields involved in welding is counter-intuitive...... but I believe it after doing some research and glad my neo-dy rotor'd mags never get so warm you can't hold your hand on them
What does an "uneven" field look like, and how do you know that is not the normal look?
How could an uneven field, or a weak field, cause backfiring and popping?
interesting experiment and excellent question..... a combination of which that could be turned into a valid benchmark testing of a rotor for actual strength, have to standardize and maybe have an old 15 inch monitor around and simply photograph known good and bad patterns for comparison....... possible although not as direct as actually testing with a standardized fitted test weight(s)
Does not the ability to force the spark across a 10mm safety gap show the magneto system is strong?
If you have misfiring, with sparks crossing the safety gap instead of going to the plugs, does that not indicate a problem with the plugs, caps or wires? How about replacing them.
there certainly is excessive resistance in the secondary....... that is very obvious and if all the magneto has to have is enough spunk to jump that tiny safety gap........ then for sure the magneto is strong enough
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
Hey everybody thanks for all the great input! I took my magneto to a local aircraft repair shop. He said the polarity was a little off but not bad so he put it in the magic magneto coil aligner machine. I got home tonight and re-installed everything. It still won't run . Going on a hunch I hooked up my compression gauge. Left cylinder topped the gauge out at 92 psi after a couple of kicks. Right cylinder....well let's just say I was lucky to get 20 PSI after about a dozen quick kicks 
. I guess I know where my problem lies!
BTW - Back to the magneto magnet issue - The shop I went to was an F.A.A. liscensed shop. He said that it is possible to change the magnetic properties by welding because they have had it happen to them. Because they are on FAA regulations they have strict tests they must do on every part they refurbish. Apparently there are some FAA regulations regarding usable magnets and they have had welding on or near them make the parts unuseable for FAA.
. Going on a hunch I hooked up my compression gauge. Left cylinder topped the gauge out at 92 psi after a couple of kicks. Right cylinder....well let's just say I was lucky to get 20 PSI after about a dozen quick kicks . I guess I know where my problem lies!BTW - Back to the magneto magnet issue - The shop I went to was an F.A.A. liscensed shop. He said that it is possible to change the magnetic properties by welding because they have had it happen to them. Because they are on FAA regulations they have strict tests they must do on every part they refurbish. Apparently there are some FAA regulations regarding usable magnets and they have had welding on or near them make the parts unuseable for FAA.
Magneto stuff - help with R60US
be a good idea to listen to your kicker foot before you set out running amok again
good luck
good luck