If you like our site, please consider joining our club!
By joining you will help ensure that we can continue to provide this service
JOIN HERE!

Inspiration, 1955 R50

User avatar
johnpst
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:53 am

Let's talk about slingers

Post by johnpst »

Aloha,

Thanks Thomas. I've sent you an IM int the past. I'll try again and see if we can get together on this. I was avoiding doing the transmission for now but, since there is some expertise close by, I may just take it on.

JDL, even though I paid full boat for the head rebuild, I do feel i'm entitled to bitch a bit, I will keep that to myself on the site. I will send you the information personally though if you really need. I don't think it's hard to figure out the one shop in Northern California that has a great Facebook page though. I'm sure he's competent overall but, my job, not so much. What I didn't say was all the concourse events he attended while my heads were sitting in his shop not being worked on. That's all in the past now so, I'll hele (Hawaiian for move) on.

So, we've all hear Vech talk about slingers. He's right. Though I didn't have issues with mine, yet, I do have some photos to show that it's important. the crud will fill up the slingers and migrate to the oiling ports on the crank pins eventually starving the connecting rods of oil.

The crud is not has hard as I thought from the discussions on the boards but, it is there and will not come loose without removal of the crank and thorough cleaning.

I DO NOT recommend even attempting to change oil to a detergent oil or running any solvents in there. As a consulting turbine engineer, I have learned that unless you completely disassemble and get critical parts out of the way like bearings, pumps, orifices, relief valves... In other words everything but the tank and piping, you will do damage. Do even a little research on the use of detergent oils on older engines in the 60's and 70's and you will see a trail of destruction. There is no doubt that you have something in your oil passages that's comfortably stuck right where it is. If you get it loose, it's going to find something like the passages in your crank pins or cylinder lubrication and destroy your engine. Just leave it alone. Periodically, disassemble your engine, clean the slingers and oil passages and put it back together. it's just not that hard.

As for how often, all I know is some things that will extend the period between. Again, extend to what? I don't know. I challenge anyone to says they do to produce their crystal ball. The guys that service these engines routinely will have the best data. Conditions inside your engine are the only constant and none of us can know that.

1. Change the oil often. Removing the particulate is the only reliable method of prevention.
2. Using a magnetic drain plug or some of the pan magnets available will help reduce the steel particulate in the oil. I say help because as long as the engine is running, metal particles will NOT settle on the magnet in any significant way. It's only when the engine is sitting that the magnets will be of most benefit. The good news is that the aluminum is softer than than steel so, it will do less abrasive damage. The bad news is, it will still plug oiling orifices in the crank pins and the bearings rolling over it will cause micro-vibration.

As long as the engine is running you have an active and effective centrifuge operating. That's why detergent oil, even in a fresh engine will not do any good. The heavier metal will still settle out in the slingers due to centrifugal force.

I've done the math and there is no way to put an effective oil filtering system on the installed oil pumping system. It is possible to install some electric "kidney pump" oil filter system however, I don't know of any. The problem with a kidney pump oil filtering system is, the oil is not filtered before entering the slingers so, at best, it will only increase the time between oil changes. Certainly the price of installing one is more than the price of changing oil multiple times. There are various deep oil pans with magnets in them which will increase the volume and therefore dilute the amount of particulate / volume of oil. The bad news? Centrifuges don't care! They are patent and will see every drop of oil and entrained metal at some point.

Here's some photos.
Attachments
img_5123.jpg
img_5123.jpg (337.59 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5125.jpg
img_5125.jpg (409.6 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_2778.jpg
img_2778.jpg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_2777.jpg
img_2777.jpg (1.94 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5130.jpg
img_5130.jpg (371.8 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5126.jpg
img_5126.jpg (275.65 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_2760.jpg
img_2760.jpg (1.4 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_2762.jpg
img_2762.jpg (1.88 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_2774.jpg
img_2774.jpg (2.3 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
John
55 - R50, 06-R1200RT, 74 Ducati 750GT, 57 - R69, 78 - R100S

JDL
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:37 pm

Hi John, Yes, I have a good

Post by JDL »

Hi John,

Yes, I have a good idea to whom you're referring. I've had dealings with that shop also but most of my dealing have been positive. I'm glad you're bike is complete and running well. You did a nice job of restoring the bike. And yes, it was motivation for me to pick up another bike and start over. I'm just not sure which model or manufacturer. I bought my first British bike(64' Triumph Bonneville) a few years ago and it's almost complete. Just waiting to get the tank and fenders painted. I may go with another British bike or a Ducati.

Take care,

JDL
JDL
'55 R25/3, '80 R65, '01 R1100S

User avatar
johnpst
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:53 am

Speaking of swing-arm bearings

Post by johnpst »

Thank JDL. It's for that reason that I don't want to just bag on the guy. I also think if this were a common occurrence that there would be a lot more complaining going on so, my experience is the odd-man-out.

So, as I was removing my swing-arm pivot point rust, there seemed to be what looked like bearings. Hmmm. That's odd. Why would there be bearings at the pivot. Further investigation revealed that BMW designed them that way so, off to get new bearings. But what to do with the rust? Remove it I guess. Being in the shape of bearings I decided rust remover may not work so, I got out my trusty bearing puller, provided by Dan at CycleWorks. An ingenious device for it's simplicity.

Hmmm, the first ball of rust on the right side front was resisting so, I moved on to the others. The left front. No problem. Came out with just the right amount of force. The right rear, difficult but, again, with a little heat it came out without much fuss. Left rear, easier than the right. Back to the the right front. Liberal amounts of heat and cold on the outer race damn near completely destroyed the puller. Now, one might think that I would move to the press and get a blind puller and remove this but, Dan and CycleWorks took the time to design this tool and I paid for it so, it's got to work Good engineering cannot fail. Multiple attempts to get the shoulder of the screws under the outer race pulled the heads off the screws. Multiple beers, loud music and persistence, five hours of it, paid off. I now have an almost completely destroyed bearing puller and a ball of rust in the shape of a tapered bearing outer race.

So, the lesson. Really none. I enjoyed the beer and the loud music. Two out of three isn't bad for a Saturday afternoon.

For those of you who may not have beer or loud music to dull the pain of continually pulling back an empty stump of a puller, here are some suggestions.

1. Be prepared with a blind puller. The CycleWorks puller will work fine for parts that have not cold welded to the bore they are stuck in.
2. A day or week before you plan on removing the bearing, apply Kroil, WD40, or other penetrating oil. Occasionally heat the bore expanding it so the fluid can penetrate and oil it up again. I had canned compressed air (CO2 in a bottle) that I used to shrink the stuck part while the OD was heated.
3. Light raps with an 8 oz or smaller hammer will help to shake the OD around the hardened outer bearing race, further loosening the rust. CAUTION! Do not hit it hard enough to flare the OD in. The mild steel bearing bore will gall on it's way out causing you to possibly have to weld repair and re-machine the bore.
4. Be patient. Remember, the machine never wins.

Thanks all for looking. Hopefully this will help someone.

John
Attachments
img_5143.jpg
img_5143.jpg (485.29 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5144.jpg
img_5144.jpg (465.18 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5154.jpg
img_5154.jpg (253.41 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_5153.jpg
img_5153.jpg (249.06 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
John
55 - R50, 06-R1200RT, 74 Ducati 750GT, 57 - R69, 78 - R100S

Daves79x
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:13 pm
Location: Knox, PA. USA
Been thanked: 2 times

Great effort! You can just

Post by Daves79x »

Great effort! You can just replace the screws on the puller if they wear out.

Dave
Dave

808Airhead
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:06 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Damn,that looks like a hell

Post by 808Airhead »

Damn,that looks like a hell of an effort. I took mine out in 10 minutes a side by welding a bead all around the face of the race,when they cooled down and contracted they literally almost fell out of the swingarm. The welding heats them up nice,but this method is only if you intend to refinish the arm. I was powdercoating my frame and swingarm,so I used this technique in the rear swingarm and front swingarm.
I applaud your persistence,we share the same tenaciousness!
Thomas M.
R69S - R60/2 - R67/2 - R51/3 - R69

Daves79x
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 8:13 pm
Location: Knox, PA. USA
Been thanked: 2 times

Good Info

Post by Daves79x »

So glad you are chronicling your project. Too few of us have. I admire your efforts at getting the bike running. And you ultimately found out what was inevitable-that a complete tear-down was necessary. 60 plus years can do a lot of damage and wear to a bike and the only way to know is to take it completely down. I think you are going about it the right way now and you will be very pleased with the results. Mine took a year and a half and was worth every hour and dollar to see it back on the road. Keep us up to date when you can.

Dave
Dave

User avatar
johnpst
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:53 am

THANKS FOR THE ENCOURAGEMENT, PARTS STARTING TO ARRIVE

Post by johnpst »

Dave, that's the elegance of the tool. Easily repair/replace parts.

Tomas, I was going to do the weld bead, having read about it, but, I just didn't want to take it to my shop at work. You know the story, "just one more pull". "It will take me longer to drive in than to keep going". With the success of the second, third, fourth attempt gave me confidence the first one was just an anomaly. Many beers and good music, just kept going on it. I do plan on more restorations so a welder is in my future.

Parts are starting to arrive for the rebuild. The tank and fenders are in at paint now. The frame will go in next week when my kids go back to the mainland. I will keep this story going until I get back on the road.

Thanks for the encouragement. Here's some more photos of the purchase with some scattered disassembly photos.

John
Attachments
img_0768.jpg
img_0768.jpg (3.24 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_0732.jpg
img_0732.jpg (3.17 MiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_0679.jpg
img_0679.jpg (472.77 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
img_0674.jpg
img_0674.jpg (512.16 KiB) Viewed 2373 times
John
55 - R50, 06-R1200RT, 74 Ducati 750GT, 57 - R69, 78 - R100S

User avatar
johnpst
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:53 am

SHOCKS, PHYSICS, AND 8TH GRADE

Post by johnpst »

Aloha,

I just got back from California. I had a chance to be surrounded by others who were teased for the pocket protectors, geeky haircut, and Ti-35 calculator. We just celebrated our 20th anniversary meeting for the W501D5A combustion turbine user's group. We talked about creep, embitterment, balance vectors and drank beer. Not necessarily in that order.

So,since I don't have a lot of progress to report, I'll fill you in on a law of physics lesson. After many attempts to gain insight from those in the know regarding removing the rear shock damper from the shock retainer.

Over a month ago, I spend three quality hours with a damper clamp, a torch, Kroil, WD40, more heat, some beer, and a hammer trying to remove the dampers as advertise in every article I could find. One issue I found that was not published where I could find it was, the damper tube is manufactured in two pieces. The end that threads into the retainer is machined in such a way that the upper, hollow tube, fits over it and is crimped. Clamping it tightly into a vice and damper clamp should fix the damper. Using a dowel or other properly sized round instrument, you should be able to strike the dowel and break it loose from the damper. Unless...

As mentioned above, I worked on mine for quite some time. I called ans wrote many folks in the know until Richard from Vech's Benchmark Works informed me that he knew exactly what I was talking about. I'm sure I'm not the first to run into this but, it would have been hard to tell from the answers I was getting from folks. Anyway, Richard advised I pinch the damper in the vice since it's trashed anyway, heat the retainer, tap it with a hammer around the circumference, careful not to damage the aluminum, and give it a shot. 10 minutes, a beer, and a little propane and both sides off.

The rub? After 40 years as an engineer, I got my ass handed to me by one of the most basic laws of physics. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. I was using a rubber mallet to strike the lever in the retainer trying not to damage the parts. Mistake. The rubber absorbed the energy and bounced back instead of applying torque to the threaded portion. Striking it with a steel hammer around the circumference of the retainer loosened 60 years of grit and a nice moderate strike on the lever cracked them both off almost first blow.

The frame is being power coated and the paintwork is still in progress. Should be starting some buildup soon.

Good luck all.
John
55 - R50, 06-R1200RT, 74 Ducati 750GT, 57 - R69, 78 - R100S

User avatar
johnpst
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 2:53 am

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON...

Post by johnpst »

Aloha,

I'm going to put this small post up without pictures and see if it gets published. I've posted two updates over the past two months and they don't make it. I was filling some time while I waited for paint, powder coating, and parts, by writing about the crankshaft. If this works, I will backtrack and re-post with pictures.

I sent my crankshaft to Dan at CycleWorks. Long story short, exactly as advertised. He's corrected the damage caused by bump starting (see above for that story). He's commissioned some of his support folks to balance everything, lighten the flywheel (which I'll comment on after riding it for a while), boring the connecting rods for over-sized bearings. I checked everything when I received it and it's all as stated. Dan provided the work, documented it, communicated, and delivered it in a timely manner. Mahalo! More on this when I'm sure it will get posted.

Before I continue, I am building a "roller" as the Barrington Motor Works calls it. My goal is for the bike to look like a very well taken care of 60+ year old bike. My primary reason for restoring it was finding all the critical parts worn beyond safe operation. I ride by concourses I don’t stop at them.

Okay, moving forward with the build, I got the frame back from powder coating two weeks ago. Awesome! It really paid off to go with someone who works with motorcycles. Regal here in Kapolei Hawaii, who changed their name from Hi Tech while my parts were there, got it right. They did a proper job of protecting the threads and weep holes. Caution, as has been mentioned a hundred times on this site, power coat is thicker than paint and may require some thinning to get things like the engine mounts to fit smoothly. It's not a problem, just know about it up front. Trying to fit the engine in the frame with the spacers without thinking about the coating thickness could result in a substantial chunk coming out of the coating.

I've got the shocks and front fork swingarm built. Fortunately, nothing really to report. Follow the instructions and it pretty much assembles itself. I chased all the threads before assembling. I cleaned the powder coat from the spring shields so the shock end will fit through. I chose not to install a zerk fitting on the front end because it just makes sense to me to disassemble it every couple of years, clean, inspect, and correct issues. I'm not a big believer in installing reasons to ignore things. Now, if the bearing could be sealed I might engineer a way to keep water out and forget it but, it is what it is and it's just not that hard to do this maintenance. Hell, my R1200RT has to be broken in half to lube up the splines on the clutch. This seems pretty reasonable.

Next is the swingarm. Once that's complete, I'll put the wheels and handlebars on.

Aloha,
john
John
55 - R50, 06-R1200RT, 74 Ducati 750GT, 57 - R69, 78 - R100S

User avatar
schrader7032
Posts: 9016
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:00 am
Location: San Antonio, TX
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 29 times

John - Sorry about posts not

Post by schrader7032 »

John -

Sorry about posts not showing up. I hadn't noticed that your last post was snagged by the forum software "police". It uses some algorithm to identify spam and sadly thought your post was. Maybe it was the reference to the hugely popular Ti-35 calculator!! Anyway, I've reset your last post and it should now appear in the forum.
Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2
Fast. Neat. Average. Friendly. Good. Good.

Post Reply