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stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Hubs

It turns out I have 2 different size rims (and hubs) on my motorcycle and only one has a grease nipple on it...

Thanks again for weighing in - this is very educational

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Frame number 525581

is listed as a R51/3 frame.

I am at the point now where serious money gets spent and came across a contradiction...The parts listing for the steering resistance plate (item 11 on R51_2 and item 7 on R51_3 - see drawings) leads me to believe my frame is a R51/2. The part coming off the motorcycle is identical to the one in the picture of the R51/2. If only the forks had been reworked, then the original attachment point for the R51/3 plate should be available on the frame and it is not.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

  • r51_2.png
  • r51_3.png
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
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Your motorcycle was once

Your motorcycle was once modified by a very knowledgable owner who maybe removed the tang for the R51/3 friction damper because he had/wished to use the R51/2 front end. AFAIK, that tang is the only way to distinguish an R51/2 frame from an EARLY R51/3-R68 frame. I suspect your bike, with the replacement R75WH motor in place was built up as sidecar racing machine, and maybe the upper motor mount design for the twin cam series is better for that application: getting pretty far out in trivia-land/ best to consult with the Germans???

stephan.pretorius
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The value of lending your ears out...

I received my wheels today...A fellow enthusiast insisted that I have Buchanan rebuild them. I am happy I did!

  • Rear.jpg
  • Front.jpg
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Recently on eBay...

I saw this old motorcycle on eBay and was surprised to see that my motorcycle actually had company: take a look at the handlebars...(see pictures

Also: there is a beautiful 1939 R51(6th listing) http://www.midamericaauctions.com/showvehicle.asp?VehicleID=22153 on display at the South Point Casino. It has the Lugauer racing tank and my fenders look the same - real nice motorcycle

  • bmw_mc_1.jpg
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
thaemlitz3321
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You have a really interesting

You have a really interesting bike there. I'm guessing the rear rim was smaller? 18" vs 19" on the front? They turned out great.

Great tank and fenders with the matching exhaust. The link with the rear set controls is amazing. Makes you wonder what your restoration may have been like if you found it with sport bars instead of ape hangers.

I also had a steel and chrome bell on one of my /3's. I'm sure they were stock on during a certain period of manufacturing.

stephan.pretorius
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More advice please...

I am hoping someone on the forum can tell me at what sleeve diameter should I consider boring out to the first oversize?

Please let me know,
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
schrader7032
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What is the base engine?

What is the base engine? Generally, IIRC, the next size over is another 0.5mm. But you should measure the current cylinder size so you know your starting point and then you can decide what the next oversize dimension is.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

Darryl.Richman
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Our model information table

Our model information table says that the R51/3 had an original bore of 68mm. As Kurt says, add half a mm to that and get 68.5mm. But you should never just bore a cylinder, you should bore it to match the piston you have to put in the cylinder. If you're going to do this, buy the pistons and give them to whoever you have doing the work so they can bore to match.

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stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Let me ask the question another way...

What is the tolerance range of a sleeve that I have to be within before I should bore to the next oversize please (<<.5mm)? See typical inspection and machining criteria below. In the listed example, the dimension I am looking for is 94.00-94.03 (should be boldfaced)

With thanks,
Stephan

ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS (EXAMPLE)

Displacement 128 Cu. In. (2.1L)
Bore 3.701" (94.0 mm)
Stroke 2.99" (76.0 mm)
Compression Ratio 9.0:1
Cylinder Bore Diameter 3.701-3.702 (94.00-94.03)
Cylinder Bore Maximum Taper .002 (.06)
Cylinder Bore Maximum Out-Of-Round .002 (.06)
Pistons - Diameter 3.700 (93.98)
Pistons - Standard Clearance .001-.002 (.02-.05)
Pistons - Maximum Clearance .008 (.20)
Piston Ring #1 End Gap - Standard .012-.018 (.30-.45)
Piston Ring #1 End Gap - Maximum .035 (.95)
Piston Ring #1 Sided Clearance - Standard .002-.003 (.05-.08)
Piston Ring #1 Sided Clearance - Maximum .005 (.12)
Piston Ring #2 End Gap - Standard .012-.020 (.30-.50)
Piston Ring #2 End Gap - Maximum .040 (1.0)
Piston Ring #2 Sided Clearance - Standard .002-.003 (.04-.07)
Piston Ring #2 Sided Clearance - Maximum .004 (.10)
Piston Ring #3 (Oil) End Gap - Standard .010-.016 (.25-.40)
Piston Ring #3 (Oil) End Gap - Maximum .035 (.95)
Piston Ring #3 (Oil) Sided Clearance - Standard .001-.002 (.02-.05)
Piston Ring #3 (Oil) Sided Clearance - Maximum .004 (.10)

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
Darryl.Richman
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Data for the R50

Stephan, I don't have a shop manual for the R51/3, but the similar R50 engine requires a 0.05-0.06mm clearance between the piston skirt and the cylinder bore when fresh. A clearance of 0.12mm is worn and requires a new bore.

This is why you should get your pistons before you bore your cylinders, and bore to match.

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stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Thank you Darryl - EOM

EOM

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Swiss Post carrier once inside the USA

Who is the carrier for Swiss Post once a parcel clears customs? I hope someone can help please.

Thanks!
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
Darryl.Richman
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USPS

Once it gets to the US, the USPS is responsible for its delivery. I've never been able to track a parcel once it leaves the sending country, and it can take a while for it to show up.

For example, this past summer I sent two large parcels from Germany to my home. DHL/Deutsche Post said they left Germany (mit luftpost!) within a week, but it took three weeks for them to show up. There was no new status available after they left Germany.

I have had orders from Mark Huggett take a month to get here.

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comet
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R51/3

Stephan,
All of the early plunger frame bikes had chromed steel bell covers at the rear drive. They tended to rust and suffered because of the left hand thread. The R67/3 of 55-56 used a cast aluminum one and that is usually what the dealers supplied for a replacement.

stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Thanks!

So what to do? Live with the rust, or split the shaft at the taper and replace the bell cover? If the latter, how? Please share if you know...

Happy new year!

Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Ignore my last posting please

Darryl gave pretty good instructions earlier...Thanks again

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Thread at the bottom of the tank

I would appreciate it if someone could confirm the thread pitch at the bottom (where it sits on the horizontal tabs) of the fuel tank. It appears to be M8X1.0mm (fine) rather than the M8X1.25mm (coarse).

Thanks in advance.

Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
schrader7032
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San Antonio, TX
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I just looked at RealOEM for

I just looked at RealOEM for the R51/3. It shows part 16110010260 hex bolt (2) as M8x1 length 30. Seems to be a common part...same for the R69S.

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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

stephan.pretorius
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M8x1mm - Thanks!

EOM

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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I ran into this one today while on the internet
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Stephan Pretorius
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stephan.pretorius
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Does anyone know?

which other model's compression ring (part of the clutch) [p/n 21 21 1 231 666 on a /5] will fit the R51/3? The shop sealing my gearbox told me my clutch was new but I only have about 10% contact between my pressure plate and compression ring. According to them I will get up to 70% contact when I have the surfaces machined...Any comments please? - it is always much appreciated

With thanks,
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
Darryl.Richman
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All of the early 50s twins,

All of the early 50s twins, save the R51/2 and the R68, have the same clutch parts. The R68 is similar to the others, the R51/2 has a prewar design.

It is possible to upgrade them to a /2 style clutch, but all the clutch parts must be replaced.

The /3 clutches are pretty odd. The outside edge of the pressure plate is machined into saw-like teeth, and there's a ring that screws onto the flywheel that matches this pattern on its inner surface. Apparently this is intended to keep the pressure plate from canting during operation if one of the 6 coil springs should break or weaken.

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stephan.pretorius
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Thank you!

I actually found the original part number - it was listed as a thrust plate (Vech has stock). Silly me for not considering all the possible synonyms immediately...

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Stumbled upon...
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
dougbrashear
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Very cool, my R67/2 engine

Very cool, my R67/2 engine was in a bike delivered to Göhler in May, 1952.

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1967 BMW R60/2
1952/1954 BMW R67/2
1965 Puch SGS 250

stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Forks

I haven't posted in awhile, but things are back on track and coming together. I have a quick question please: How much oil goes in each fork tube? Anything special I should know, look out for or be aware of?

With thanks,
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
ctydenhat
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use piston ring set of R51 replace R50

I need to replace a piston ring set of BMW R50 STD (68mm), I see on ebay have a set which is use for R51/2/3 but it have same dimension 68mm ( Link ebay).
Everyone help me that they can use for R50 or not?
Waiting help for my R50
Regards

stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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To paint or not to paint?

Was part number 5 on the schematic originally black not please?

  • damper.png
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Telescope Fork

I have a dilemma. Consider the fork assembly: The shop manual says part 14 (tube) should stick out 192mm above the fork bottom yoke (part 6). I bought a brand new set of lamp holders (part 1) and at the 192mm length, they seem to prevent the upper yoke (part 2) from getting sandwiched between the two nuts on the Damper picture (parts 6 and 7)...Is trimming of the lamp holders necessary to be able to pinch the upper yoke?

Please weigh in. With thanks,
Stephan

  • telescopefork.png
  • damper.png
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Stephan Pretorius
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rd 'n NH and AZ
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Tool instead?

I bought the little wheel bearing grease tool from Dan at http://www.cycleworks.net/ I have yet to use it but I hope it works and I can grease the wheel bearings without future disassembly.

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stephan.pretorius
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I hope the heavy hitters weigh in...

An effort to replace the rear drive seals revealed much more than I was hoping to discover...

The cavity was filled with metal particles and the source for them easy to find - see the pictures. Based on simple mechanics, we know the smaller gear always fails first and it is clearly evident that it happened in this case as well. What is strange though, is the fact that the larger ring gear shows hardly any signs of wear.

The question is now how to move forward from here (I don't know how readily available there parts are:
1. Do I only replace the smaller pinion?
2. Do I replace the pair?
3. Any other reasonable options?

I attached pictures of the pinion with the damage and also the other relevant parts. The last picture shows the thrust bearing on the large gear impregnated with some of the grinding paste...

I would love to hear from those who had to rework the rear drive or those who have seen similar failures.

With thanks,
Stephan

  • _dsc0019.jpg
  • _dsc0029.jpg
  • _dsc0031.jpg
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Darryl.Richman
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You should always replace

You should always replace them as a pair, they are lapped in together. Check with Vech or Mark Huggett for the parts. One thing that's nice about the /3s is that the ring gear separates from the drive splines, unlike everything newer.

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stwilliams
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All of the parts are readily

All of the parts are readily available. You should definitely replace the gears. They come as a set as Darryl pointed out. It is important to shim the hole unit once assembled and check for backlash. I would suggest buying a gasket set too when you order the new gears. Hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the spline still has some life left in it.

Darryl.Richman
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Scott's right with his

Scott's right with his implication that there is some wear on the drive splines and that it isn't clear how much is there. If the splines still have most of their starting width, I would continue to use them and be sure to lube them lightly enough that it won't come off in use and contaminate the brake linings. I go with Honda Moly 60, but a similar lube would be fine, when putting the rear wheel back in place, and with each tire change.

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stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Darryl and Scott

Thank you much for weighing in - I found the parts (now I only need the money). Is it fair to assume that a reputable BMW motorcycle dealership in the US would sell the same quality that I can buy from MH? Vech does not list the pinion and crown gearset on his pages - I will call him during next week to find out if he has any (not listed).

Splines on the wheel interface: I tried to take a good picture, but I was somewhat unsuccessful. The splines look good - minimal wear. Another enthusiast mentioned that for my use, they'd do well.

Scott I signed up to receive all updates n Weiss und Blau and I follow your postings often - thank you very much - your site very interesting and insightful.

I have one more question: the bell cover over the U-joint is a left hand thread. Is it a through left hand thread (ie. does it screw into the casing part with a left hand thread as well?

Thanks all!
Stephan

  • _dsc0081.jpg
  • _dsc0084.jpg
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
Darryl.Richman
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If your BMW dealer is

If your BMW dealer is ordering the parts from BMW, then they are identical to what Mark Huggett or Vech would have. Mark Huggett has these parts made for BMW, and he and Vech have a marketting deal.

I would continue using your splines, but they are worn. You can see at the bottom of each spline how thick it was originally, and you can see that they are worn on both sides from that. If you investigate the inside of your wheel hub, you'll likely find tha the mating splines are also worn. If/when you do eventually buy a new set of splines, swap the front and rear wheels so as to get the "new" set of hub splines to go with the new drive splines; they will last longer that way.

The bell cover has a left handed thread, and the thread on the final drive casing is a matching left handed thread. (I'm not really sure what you're asking here.)

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stwilliams
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Thanks Stephen for the kind

Thanks Stephen for the kind words. Glad to see you are back at it with the bike. If you still have a fair bit of parts to order, consider ordering from Germany (or Switzerland) as the prices can be considerably better than here at home. For sure Huggett has the parts. There are other sources as well.

If you utilize Vech for his expertise, knowledge and availability, then I would recommend buying the parts from him as he certainly earns his sales.

I too was baffled by the question on the bell housing cover. It is left hand thread, and screws on the the steel collar that tightens down on the pinion bearing in the housing. This too is left hand thread. If your steel threaded part is bunged up, these are available new as well.

Scott

stephan.pretorius
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Having read my own posting again I agree

Having read my own posting again I agree that I wasn't very clear. The thread in question is the non visible interface (threaded) going into the drive housing - see pic

  • housing.png
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Darryl.Richman
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Ok, Scott has your question

Ok, Scott has your question covered then.

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Hi, I've been lurking on this

Hi,

I've been lurking on this forum for a long time, but reading through this thread prompted me to join. What a fantastic bike you have Stephan!

I can't believe the same owner that modified the bike so beautifully for racing actually fitted the handlebars, saddle and luggage rack, these must surely have come later.

Have you had any luck researching its competition history? You posted that you purchased a factory gas tank, are you replacing the Lugauer? The fenders look like aluminum, not chrome, right? If it was my bike I'd jus be looking for straight bars and a solo saddle with a swing seat extension. The rest would stay as found... until an R75 engine came to light! Smile

Good luck with finishing the build.

Cheers,
Pete

brownbmw
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After reading this thread, I

After reading this thread, I agree with Pete. Would be a shame to go to the trouble and expense to make this look like every other restored R51/3 in lieu of retaining all of the cool options/modifications this one has and the history (even if yet unknown) that goes with them.

Pete Murphy
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^ yeah I didn't wanna come on

^ yeah I didn't wanna come on too strong in my first post here but it really would be a shame.

stephan.pretorius wrote:

Scott, where did you find those nice looking Beru strap clamps?

Please let me know,
Stephan

Hi Stephan, I've seen them here: http://www.eurojamb.com/bmw-fork-gaiter-clamps-r51-r67-pre-1954-stainles...

I'd swap a set of these for your old clamps if you plan to replace them Wink

Pete Murphy
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^ yeah I didn't wanna come on

If you're really getting rid of the tank too, it's on my Christmas list and I've been good all year... just saying!

stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Hi Pete

I have been out of circulation for awhile and decided to catch up a little...Thanks for the advice! I am open to all suggestions and I like the idea of putting a R75 engine in there. That is certainly not off the table, but the important thing for me right now is to get it back together again and up and running. Once that is the case, I will keep on playing with other ideas.

As far as the tank goes, I am no longer the owner of it.

Thanks for looking. Here's the current status: everything is ready to go onto the motorcycle...parts powder coated, re-chromed, cleaned, etc. I will get back to the assembly as soon as I have a healthy leg to stand on.

Best regards,
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Gator clamps

Pete,

Yes those clamps are the replacements (but not originals). I did however, find the originals (ratchet clamps only): they were discontinued awhile ago but I found a box sitting on a shelf in Denmark. I bought all of them (98 count). I kept 16 and subsequently sold the rest of them to another enthusiast. If you want, I can find out how many he has left and if he wants to part with some of them. Feel free to email me: my email is my first name dot last name at gmail dot com...I do have the older ones left. The problem for us was getting the thin stainless banding strap in the right width.

Blessings,
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
Pete Murphy
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emailed you

Thanks Stephan, I just sent you a note from my hotmail account.
Cheers,
Pete

stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Part# 33 53 3 054 312 Pertinax Bushings

I pressed new bushings (item 16) into the rear suspension and now the plunger rods are *very* tight going in. Any advice please?

With thanks,
Stephan

  • rearsuspension.png
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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
stephan.pretorius
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Derry, NH
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Googled "pertinax and R5/3" -

Googled "pertinax and R5/3" - apparently I was not the first to experience this problem...This from Mark Huggett: "The pertinax bushes are pressed in to the alu housing and then honed to fit" from another forum.

Thanks!
Stephan

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Stephan Pretorius
New Hampshire, USA
butch housman
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Buy a one gallon can of Gunk

Buy a one gallon can of Gunk Carb cleaner & soak them over night, if they don't come free easily soak them until they do, It won't hurt the carbs.
b

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