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sblaylock
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I have a question regarding the spokes on a 1936 Civilian R12. Are they supposed to be single diameter, swaged (single butted) or center reduced (double butted). I need to get new spokes for my wheels and want to get the correct ones. Someone told me they saw a photo of an R12 with center reduced spokes, but all the pictures I've seen show single diameter.

Thanks,
Scott.

Bruce Frey
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Prewar spokes are all single

Prewar spokes are all single diameter AFAIK.

Bruce

sblaylock
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That was what I thought as well...

...but then I found this parts list that shows them double butted, and the 1938 parts manual I was given also shows them double butted. I'm not sure if the parts manual is wrong, or there was a change to the spokes after a certain year either one way or another. Maybe the civil bikes are different from the military ones, or perhaps it was an option.

The parts manual I have is for the R12/R17 so maybe the spokes were different for the two bikes.

R12 Wheel Components

Anyway, I'll continue to do research and see if I can get an exact answer.

Scott.

Bruce Frey
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That's what I get for

That's what I get for "shooting from the lip". The last time I researched spokes was for my R5, R6 and R71...which do have single diameter spokes...and made a faulty assumption here. My 1935 R12/17 Ersatzteilliste shows double butted spokes just like Dietmar's website page, although with the A5 size paper manual you almost need a magnifying glass to tell.

If you can find double butted, that is what I would use. I will add that to my list of "to-do"s to my R12. Please let us know if you find a source. Thanks for paying attention to the minutae!

Bruce

mdunn
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Help

Scott,

You need to get over to the Krad rider list as well, lots of people there who know alot about R12's as well. Bruce is a member on that list and so are a few others who are on this forum.

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sblaylock
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Buchanan's Spoke and Rim

Hi Bruce,

I'm looking at using Buchanan's in Azusa, California. They have all three flavors of spokes and will custom build. I'm hoping to get the butting length from someone in the know, but if not, I'll just guesstimate it.

I'll keep you posted,
Scott.

Bruce Frey
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I looked through my photo

I looked through my photo collection which includes an early 1935 civilian R12 (P785) that is known to be unrestored and unmolested and it has double butted spokes, but you have to look really closely to see it.

That prompted me to look closely at my bike (P2153). I was surprised to find that mine has them, too, and they look like the pix of the other bike. I never noticed the double butted spokes, even when I changed the tires.

I have much of the bike apart at the moment and the rear wheel is off, so will take some pix and measurements this weekend.

Bruce

schrader7032
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Just for grins, does anyone

Just for grins, does anyone have some pictures of what you guys are talking about? I've never personally seen these older bikes, but I'm curious as to what these different spokes are all about.

Thanks...

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

Bruce Frey
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Her are pictures of my R12

Here are pictures of my R12 Spokes.

The large section diameter is 4.5mm and the small section diameter is 3.75mm. The nipples extend ±13mm past the rim.

These proved difficult to photgraph well using flash. Since I don't have a tripod here, I hoped to go outside, but the weather is not cooperating.

Pleae let me know if you have any other questions.

Bruce

schrader7032
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Bruce - I can see the two

Bruce -

I can see the two diameters of the spokes. What is the "butted" aspect that has been mentioned so far?

Thanks...

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

Bruce Frey
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Double butted spokes are

Double butted spokes are spokes that have larger diameter heads and a smaller diameter mid section. I cannot tell you the origin of the term....maybe each change in diameter is a "butt". The theory is that double butted spokes are strong where it is needed most, but saves wheel weight and provides a bit more clearance for spoke crossing.

If my cocktail napkin math is correct, that works out to about 450g/wheel...about 1 lb...for an R12 wheel. I think weight is more of an issue for racers so maybe the clerance issue is what drove BMW's decision to use them.

Bruce

schrader7032
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Bruce - Thanks...I should

Bruce -

Thanks...I should have googled the term. I find a lot of this discussion on bicycle forums. And for reasons that you suggest - weight, racing, etc.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

Peter D. Nettesheim
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Easy Spoke source

Saw your comment on trying to find spokes. Try SWC (Special Wheel Company). Mr Maier speaks english. They dont need any dimensions from you. They know the proper lengths and dimensions and will have the spokes in raw steel, or chrome. Located just outside Stuttgart Good luck.
Peter Nettesheim
Nettesheim Museum

Bruce Frey
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Special Wheel Company

Thanks, Peter!

Google found the Special Wheel Company easily!

Bruce

sblaylock
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Thank You.

Bruce,

Thank you for taking the time to measure and photograph the spokes. I really appreciate you going out of your way to do this. I’ve contacted Wolfgang at SWC and will see what he has to say about the spokes. I’m hoping he has them in the black parkerized finish. If not, I’ll take them raw and paint them.

I also need a rim for the rear. There is a pretty good dent in the one I have that I think was caused from me running too low psi in the tires.

Peter, Thank you for the link to SWC. As mentioned earlier, I’ve contacted Wolfgang and will see what he can supply.

Thanks again for all the help,
Scott.

R68
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I have no experience with

I have no experience with SWC, but WWS in Altena, Westfalia is the successor firm to the Berg Union firm which was the original supplier for your bike. They now sell the Berg Union spokes with the original "cloverleaf" insignia.

glasuritblack
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NA

I've checked with both SWC and WWS. Neither can provide double butted versions of the spoke. Each does offer single butted versions. Buchanan's in CA is the only place willing to do so. I am working with them to produce the identical spoke & nipple which could be referenced by either a part # or model #.

Best,
James Young

sblaylock
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Just to update this thread,

Just to update this thread, James was able to find a company in Colorado - Woody's Wheel Works, that will build the spokes for our R12/R17s. The person to talk to there is Zach. I haven't contacted them yet to see what they can build, but from emailing with James he was happy with the results.
Scott.

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