18 replies [Last post]
niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94

I'm scratching my head with this R60, trying to recommission it after a long period of storage. The bike was rebuilt about 5 years ago and not used. I've done all the things you do in this case, change all oils, oil cables, flush tank etc, even though the bike was properly laid up with all fresh oil, tyres up etc.
The thing is it will only run on one pot at anything above idle, it will tick over all day, steady as you like, and carry on with either HT lead off but it will not take throttle, sometimes the no.1 cylinder runs, sometimes No.2 and the running cylinder gets very hot (spitbouncing hot). Compression is ok, 8bar No1, 8.5bar No.2, valve clearances 0.15mm inlet, 0.2mm exhaust. I've tried changing the mag coil (twice), the whole mag including advance/retard(3 times), timing is bob on, the points let go a fagpaper bang on the S mark, dot and dash of the rotor right in the vee notch. Also the plugs, caps, HT leads, condenser all replaced, no difference. I've had the pipes off, no bird nests or rags blocking them. The valves are opening and closing both sides, tried (new)air filter in/out, air tubes on/off, no difference.
The carbs are the late type big mixing chamber, lever top float bowl ones, nothing blocked I can find, in any case tried two other sets of carbs one early R60, one R67/2, not expecting it to run perfect, just make a change but it is EXACTLY the same.
Fuel is 96 octane leaded, and its fresh.
Anyone got any fresh ideas please, because I'm running out, and the only thing I can think of left to check is valve timing, but I can't see that being the problem because its common to both cylinders.

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

schrader7032
schrader7032's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7032
San Antonio, TX
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 6748
Struggling to recommission R60

Seems like you've checked just about everything... I'd try changing the points and condensor...that wouldn't explain why it runs on No. 1 sometimes and No. 2 other time, but it's easy to switch out. I'd also confirm that the advance unit is working. With the front cover off, use a timing light to shine on the unit as the throttle is advanced. Do the weights swing out? Related to that, what happens to the S-mark in the window when viewed with a timing light? Is there a single S-mark or do you see a ghost image? As you advance the throttle, does the S-mark move out of the window? I believe it should slowly disappear towards the top of the window as the RPM increases.

Kurt in S.A.

__________________

Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94
Struggling to recommission R60

Thanks Kurt,
I've changed the condenser on the mag that was on, (and the coil), and the other mags had different sets of points, condensors, cams and A/R bobweights, not saying they were all perfect but they seemed ok, one mag was the one off my R69S outfit that I took off 2 years ago to fit a BT-H, so I'm pretty sure that one is ok, all points gapped to 0.4mm. I'll try your idea with the timing light but I'm not really getting to that stage. I tried bypassing the HT leads with new cable wired direct to the plugs and it worked well enough to interfere with next doors telly while the miserable sod was watching football :twisted: , when I drew the lead away from the plug on the side that was missing it would jump a gap of about 3/8" so there's a spark there. Transposing the leads on the coil makes no difference. Plugs are Bosch W240Ti (old ones), NGK B8HS(new), Champion L3G( old).

Thanks again

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

Bruce Frey
Bruce Frey's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #6316
Texas Hill Country, USA
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 574
Struggling to recommission R60

Are the safety gaps set correctly?

Run it in a dark garage with the front cover off and look for any strange fireworks.

Good luck,

Bruce

niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94
Struggling to recommission R60

Thanks Bruce,
Safety gaps set at 11mm, at tickover with either lead pulled off, it jumps the gap very nicely but nothing showing with the leads connected, by the way its half past four in the afternoon here and its nearly dark already so I don't need a dark garage!

Thanks again

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

have you done any comparisons of the magneto rotor magnets to benchmark their strengths?

I have a two pound hammer a decent rotor will pick up and hold

surprised there isn't a special tool for this........ like a specifically weighted and shaped slug of metal

make sure you are running copper core wires, no resistor caps, and gap the plugs down close to 0.015" as you dare

closer than that and they misfire

nothing else really makes sense

those rotors certainly do require re-gauss and are certainly old enough to be pathetically weak even if they've never been improperly stored or mishandled

a good upgrade would be for somebody to repop it and use Neo-Di/rare earth magnets

I have two Joe Hunts fitted with neo-di rotors and they will jump two HUGE fat blue sparks in open air

and the bikes they are on start and run very reliably

btw....... if you can get iridium (not platinum) plugs for it

that will help immensely in this area especially with today's pump gas

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

oh and I'd open that safety gap just to eliminate it from being the path of least resistance

and change plugs

this gas today can render a weak ignition'd bike's plugs beyond reclaiming with blasting even

and quick too

they can even look good but won't ever work good unless you put them in something with very high energy ignition

and fuel injection helps too

sometimes I will go thru 3 or 4 sets of new plugs to get a bike such as yours chomping at the bit reliably

but iridium really does help

gapped down nice and tight

Bruce Frey
Bruce Frey's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #6316
Texas Hill Country, USA
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 574
Struggling to recommission R60

I second the suggestion about trying NEW plugs (maybe more than one set). I have had more than one plug that would fire (with a good, blue spark) while sitting on the head, but would not fire under compression loads. It would idle, but not run.

I cannot explain why, only that it happened to my on my R6.....it drove me crazy trying to find it.

Good luck,

Bruce

Darryl.Richman
Darryl.Richman's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #6285
Surf City, USA (Santa Cruz, CA)
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 2185
Struggling to recommission R60

Do you have adequate fuel flow to the carbs? I think Duane Ausherman's site (www.w6rec.com) has some info about proper flow. Inline fuel filters or a clogged screen inside the tank can reduce flow below the consumption rate.

You say that you don't see a spark across the safety gap at the mag when the bike is idling. Do you see a spark there when you try to give the bike throttle? If not, I would think that Bruce might be on the right track, or perhaps the spark plug caps are going bad.

__________________

VBMWMO Webmaster,--Darryl Richman
http://darryl.crafty-fox.com

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

have any of you guys tested or compared a large batch of 30-50 year old permanent magnet magneto rotors against one known good freshly gaussed one?

take my word on this one

they become weak

the magnetic poles of the earth do it if nothing else

a good A&P at a smaller airport can refresh that rotor in just a minute or so

fwiw......... this is very common with any and all permanent magnet electrical generating devices once they become aged.......... with zero respect to country of original manufacture.

when they become weak....... the energy transfer is reduced

and the spark they will deliver across the plugs inside the chamber is drastically reduced and first reveals itself at kicking speeds until the bike can be rendered a no start

I don't think I have ever had a weak magneto rotor reveal itself at high speed first....... that is backwards of how they work although it can be confused on bikes whose rotors are out of phase due to rider controlled variable timing which moves the contact points relative to the point of maximum flux within the magneto...........

are some magnetos NOT like this? yes......... the Norton, for example, has an advance unit which drives the whole unit.......... so this point of maximum flux never changes.....

yet it does on magnetos which advance or retard by changing the timing position of the contact points

the quickest way to verify weak output is to reduce the gap and removed any and all resistance in the ignition secondary.......... such as non-copper core wires and resistor plug caps........

just wire copper core straight to the plug if you don't have access to good, non-resistor, plug wire ends

if reducing gap improves the situation......... you have learned your magneto is weak

and there is no good reason to ever put resistor plug cap ends on a magneto equipped bike....... or any wire other than copper core..... unless you happen to have some gold core wires laying about

comet
comet's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #33
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 160
Struggling to recommission R60

I know the feeling, I have been there before. Your mention of overheating suggests either improper mixture or timing. I would disregard prior adjustments and start over concentrating on these two issues. Someone may have something totally wrong and it is not apparent. Take the floats out of the carbs and try filling them at different levels. Good luck............Comet

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

overheating in the pipes is very typical of erratic marginal ignition

pipe loads up with raw gas and then maybe the mag finds enough reserve and rise time to cut thru the fouling and light that cylinder off.......

seen them glow nuke red before

Allan.Atherton
Allan.Atherton's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #2709
Joined: 10/27/2006
Posts: 507
Struggling to recommission R60

"EuroIron" wrote:

... a good A&P at a smaller airport can refresh that rotor in just a minute or so...

I left my rotor to the local airport, and a week later they gave it back saying it was a permanent magnet so could not be recharged.
I asked Ed Lipe in FL who rewinds coils, and he said only pre-war rotors could be recharged.
I heard from Randy Franks that rotors can be re-charged, or rather super charged to a higher state of magnetism, but the rotor will quickly revert to regular strength unless rotor is kept in a steel holder while out of the magneto body.

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

"rather super charged to a higher state of magnetism, but the rotor will quickly revert to regular strength unless rotor is kept in a steel holder while out of the magneto body."

fitted to the bike with the magneto's Mu metal around it works well but to properly store one out of the magneto itself...... should be done with some curved clamshells

they live much longer that way

and yes permanent magnet rotors for most anything can be regaussed

niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94
Struggling to recommission R60

Hi all,
Thanks a lot to everybody who replied, and to anybody who even thought about it.
Just reread the whole thread, and I think I might have spotted where I went wrong, stand by for a report in about 2 days time!

Cheers and thanks again.

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94
Struggling to recommission R60

Thanks again to all who replied.
Well the bike is now running running as sweet as a nut, but I'm afraid I can't really throw any light on what the problem was, except that it was ignition related as I thought from day one, because I solved the problem by fitting an MZ-b unit and now the bike is running fine.
I can only assume that somehow one pickup was robbing the other, but as to how I can't say as I believe these are actually two separate coils wound around a common iron core, or why changing every single component in the ignition system (more than once), did not make a difference to it. Perhaps after 30 years in the family the bike didn't want to be sold, but the old man is winding things down and I couldn't possibly keep them all, (sigh!), so it has been and will be going to its new home shortly, at least its gone it a friend of mine who I know will look after it. Yes I know its not standard, its a bike for riding, but when I first saw this bike it had car rims on it.....

Next one up will be another interesting bike, an R67/R60 hybrid with /5 rear suspension, will post a picture when I get it to my house.
Thanks again.

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

EuroIron
EuroIron's picture
 Offline
VBMWMO #7266
Joined: 04/23/2007
Posts: 414
Struggling to recommission R60

excellent you got it running by replacing the magneto with a complete ignition unit?

the stock magneto's coil is a simple transformer which is not center tapped or polarity conscience

so any weakness....... in the coil or flux generated by a weak rotor....... can affect either or both cylinders and at low speed........ it can tend to favor the cylinder of least efficiency...... ie lower compression and path of least resistance....... so such problems can be aggrevating to diagnose

the stock coils go bad as the varnish over their windings deteriorates thru the years

there are modern bolt in replacements

very possible you had both a weak rotor and weak coil and likely would have found no success putting in a modern good coil without a regausss

nice looking ride......... did you say car rims? have any pix of that setup or even the rims now off the bike?

niall4473
niall4473's picture
 Offline
Lancashire, UK
Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 94
Struggling to recommission R60

Hi EuroIron,
Sorry for not replying sooner but I've been away working in Northern Ireland, and there was no public internet where I was.

did you say car rims? have any pix of that setup or even the rims now off the bike?

No, unfortunately, because it was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen, obviously it had been converted into a lowline outfit, probably not for racing because the things weighed a ton and were only about 4.50 section, (15 inch diameter), in the same job lot that was brought over from Germany there was an R50S motor with the left hand cylinder smashed off and a badly damaged Hoske tank, one of the rims, presumably the front one was badly bent so those bits probably had been together, and wrapped up in an accident. Someone had started to rebuild it using this bike as a donor, just as well they gave up, it must have had all the ground clearance of a slug.
The wheels themselves were very crude, they weren't wire wheels like off an MG or whatever, they were dished pressed ones off some kind of 1950's German car or small van and were BOLTED directly to studs drilled through the cast iron part of the hub and located with taper seat nuts, I personally would not have gone down to the shops on it.
This was back in about 1975.

__________________

Oil is always cheaper than metal

vonkas
vonkas's picture
 Offline
Joined: 11/29/2006
Posts: 27
Re: Struggling to recommission R60

"niall4473" wrote:

I'm scratching my head with this R60, trying to recommission it after a long period of storage. ...

could be the 'break off' of the magneto is exceeded as soon as the auto advance starts moving. To test for this, lock the weights into place (cable tie). If it then runs a bit better you found the culprit. I have german instructions how to align it properly and there is a not so obvious pre-condition - but do the testfirst..

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.