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skychs
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1966 R60/2 standard electronics

Valves adjusted. New points, plugs, condenser. Advancer cleaned.

Static timing worked just fine. Adjusted points plate and set points gap .016. Buzz box worked as planned right at the "S" mark.

Dynamic tuning ..... bike started right up. Idled well. Followed the "S" mark as the RPM's increased/decreased. Initially saw the "F" mark then at high RPM's the engine would start missing and the timing light became intermittent. After that never saw the "F" mark again. Took the bike for a test run. It idles better than ever. Has great acceleration and runs very smooth at all RPM's, through all the gears. Used the timing light again to check everything. Same thing. Runs smooth up to very high RPM's then light becomes intermittent. No F mark.

Bike starts on first kick. Idles very well. Runs great. Im still worried about not seeing the "F" mark. Suggestions? Comments.

FL54
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I'm certainly no expert but "

I'm certainly no expert but " starts on one kick, idles well, runs great ". What's not to like? I'd just ride it.

Beemer100
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maybe your timing light is

maybe your timing light is gone ...
Try the following. Bend a wire so that it holds the two "wings" of the advance mechanism at max advance position. Then slowly turn the engine and check if your buzzer reacts at the F(frueh) mark. If you get an extra pair of hands, you can do this by hand (which I prefer since then you really can push the 2 wings and simulate max advance).
Hope my english is clear enough Wink

best
Klaus

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Intermittent timing light

Bike runs ok at load and all rpm's ?
Timing light intermittent at higher rpms?

If so I would think the sparkplug pickup for your timing light is intermittent
Their is a u shaped iron core and a flat piece that rest on top of that when closed over the plug wire and is spring loaded
the spring becomes weak and doesnt seat well when closed over the wire or the u core or top piece has a hairline crack in it
Try another timing light

Tommy

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skychs
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light

We tried 3 different timing lights. It did it to all three.

schrader7032
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The advance unit might be

The advance unit might be worn allowing movement past the F-mark. If that is really happening, you're in danger of damage to the engine. If an R69S did that, likely a hole in the piston would result. Not so much on the R60/2 with less compression ratio.

Verify that the F-mark is truly going past the timing hole...if so, figure out why.

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wa1nca
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Timmng issue

I like Beemer's 100 suggestion on how to check max advance
If that checks ok then try the timing light off the other plug wire to eliminate a noisy plug wire thus giving you a bad trigger at higher rpm's

Tommy

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schrader7032
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Also don't use the bike's

Also don't use the bike's battery. Presumably you're using a 12v light so using the 6v stock power isn't the thing to do. I often roll my bike next to my car and open up the hood to use the car's battery.

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skychs
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F mark

Ok ..... got another timing light. This time I added a Neiko digital photo tachometer to check the RPM's. If you're not familiar with the Neiko I placed a very small piece of reflective tape on the fly wheel. Infrared light from the meter reflects off the tape and gives a digital reading.

At around 8000 rpm the timing light starts to flicker and the engine begins to hesitate/miss ever so slightly. Im not talking a huge miss. You can barely tell but when you hear it the timing light starts to flicker differently on both cylinders.

My guess after seeing the RPM's is ..... Im rolling back on the throttle before the recommended 8500 rpm's and Im never getting to the F mark.

In regards to the automatic advance unit .... the bike was running fine before the tune up so Im not sure its the culprit. The tune up was for the recommended 4-5K mile interval. Trouble shooting the issue I did remover/disassemble/clean and reasemble the Advance unit. Everything looked fine to include the two tiny springs. The bike only has around 38K miles on it with one engine/tranny overhaul around 10K miles ago.

I did not use the bikes 6v battery. I used a motorcycle 12v to fire up the timing light.

skychs
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temp

Just curious. I have a IR heat thermometer. What would an average head/ header temp be?

schrader7032
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8000 or 8500 RPM??? And the

8000 or 8500 RPM??? And the engine didn't blow up?? I'm hoping that was a typo.

Maximum advance should come around 3K RPM or so...the F-mark should come into the window and stay there. As for the advance unit, IIRC the two springs are different and need to be installed in the proper place. Or maybe I'm thinking of the R69S. Vech's notes don't specify model.

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wa1nca
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8500 rpm's

schrader7032 wrote:

8000 or 8500 RPM??? And the engine didn't blow up?? I'm hoping that was a typo.

Maximum advance should come around 3K RPM or so...the F-mark should come into the window and stay there. As for the advance unit, IIRC the two springs are different and need to be installed in the proper place. Or maybe I'm thinking of the R69S. Vech's notes don't specify model.

Yes I wouldn't even rev my car that high
Its not a jet engine

You are correct it should go to F and stay their and stop even at higher rpm's
So now if you dont see the F mark then it is possible it never gets advanced enough to be visible at any increase of rpm's

Again I like beemers way to test the advance unit
When the fly wieghts are all the way out your buzz box should indicate open and the F mark should be visible
If not then when the buzz box shows open you should be able to see were that is before or after the F mark

The later advance units had similar springs and the older ones did have a 9mm & 11mm spring
Not sure if that would cause the advance not to advance enough if installed incorrectly

Sounds like the advance unit is not advancing far enough (38 degrees) to show the F in the window

Tommy

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RPM

schrader7032 wrote:

8000 or 8500 RPM??? And the engine didn't blow up?? I'm hoping that was a typo.

Maximum advance should come around 3K RPM or so...the F-mark should come into the window and stay there. As for the advance unit, IIRC the two springs are different and need to be installed in the proper place. Or maybe I'm thinking of the R69S. Vech's notes don't specify model.

You are correct ..... typo. dyslexia at its best. Smile 5800 not 8500 rpm.

I heard there were a couple different advancers. I didn't see any difference between the two springs. I will go back in and take a look. Anyway, all this happened before I did anything to the advancer.

schrader7032
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I think the springs control

I can't imagine what the bike sounds like at 5800 RPM in the driveway!! It scares the heck out of me if I get over 2-3000 RPM!

I think the springs control the rate of advance so if they're in the wrong spot it might have a slight effect.

Vech said the side that has the advance limiter (there were two types, the "U-shape" and the "question mark") gets the 9 mm spring. The other side gets the 11 mm.

Past discussion on the little springs:

http://www.vintagebmw.org/v7/node/15368

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skychs
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advancer

schrader7032 wrote:

I can't imagine what the bike sounds like at 5800 RPM in the driveway!! It scares the heck out of me if I get over 2-3000 RPM!
I think the springs control the rate of advance so if they're in the wrong spot it might have a slight effect.
Vech said the side that has the advance limiter (there were two types, the "U-shape" and the "question mark") gets the 9 mm spring. The other side gets the 11 mm.
Past discussion on the little springs:

http://www.vintagebmw.org/v7/node/15368

I reviewed the discussion listed above and I looked at the Barrington manual. I have the 2 207 120 000 .... the Late version which has two identical 11mm springs. Both photos were taken before I took it apart to clean.

The Barrington manual has some suggestions on how to tighten everything back up and in what order. Tomorrow I will take the advancer back off, take it apart, double check the springs then reassemble following their specific instructions. Maybe that will help.

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Beemer100
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Before you take it apart

Before you take it apart again, I would try what I said before. That way you can see exactly where it fires at advancer fully advanced. If the buzzer indicates at F mark then you know that mechanically the advance unit is fine.
Then, when F still doesn't show up when you rev the bike (and I definitely would not go past 3,5-4k .... would brake my heart to hear an air-cooled boxer screaming that loud), then I would think there is an issue with the springs or other moving parts of the advance mechanism ... an then it is worth to take it apart.

my 2 cents
Klaus

skychs
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F mark

Beemer100 wrote:

Before you take it apart again, I would try what I said before. That way you can see exactly where it fires at advancer fully advanced. If the buzzer indicates at F mark then you know that mechanically the advance unit is fine.
Then, when F still doesn't show up when you rev the bike (and I definitely would not go past 3,5-4k .... would brake my heart to hear an air-cooled boxer screaming that loud), then I would think there is an issue with the springs or other moving parts of the advance mechanism ... an then it is worth to take it apart.

my 2 cents
Klaus

Good advice. I will do that and let you know.

skychs
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Advancer

Klaus.........

First ...... I solved the timing light issue. (after reading Barrington until the early morning) .... Since I was using an external stand alone battery to run the 12V light I needed to connect a ground from the battery to the frame of the bike. Ohhhhh the fine print. Smile

Second .... The static is still fine. Buzz box opens right on the S line. When I lock the advancer with the wire the buzz box goes off early ..... or before the F line making it Advanced. To retard the timing I moved the plate counterclockwise. I got within an inch of the F mark before I couldn't rotate the plate anymore. When I did the dynamic timing (at high RPM) the F mark was barely visible from the bottom of the window but it did come into view.

Im going to keep fine tuning it and see what happens.

Below are the photos with the wire opening the advancer wide open. The white marks are from the lubricant.

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schrader7032
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When I've used the battery

When I've used the battery from my car to power my timing light, I've never had to ground the car to my bike's frame. Seems weird to do that. The timing light just needs a good 12v source...the electrons come in from the + terminal, flow through the lamp, then back to the battery. The inductive pickup is just looking for pulses. I don't see where it has anything to do with the bike's ground. Anyway...

You might be falling into the trap where the point gap MUST be 0.016". Often times when people force that, they see they run out of room to adjust the timing. The gap is not sacrosanct. It can be a wide range and still work...0.012 to 0.022 maybe. The gap is much more important on a multi-cylinder engine...no big deal on a twin. The gap is set so that the points remain closed for enough time to allow current to flow into the coils to saturate them. There is plenty of time on a twin.

If you're running advanced...ie, the F-mark is coming up from the bottom of the window and disappears out the top...then I would close the gap up some. And it wouldn't take much. By closing the gap, you delay points opening until rotation of the camshaft for the lobe on the shaft to ramp open the points. Basically, that's retarding the ignition, delaying the time when it fires. If I have that mentally right, then you should have enough rotation in the points plate to get back to good timing.

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advancer

Ok, Im all ears and Im willing to try anything at this point. Im still the neophyte but Im not skeeerrreed. Smile. I will let you know what happens.

The battery in your car is probably grounded to your car. Im using a free standing 12v motorcycle battery sitting on the floor. I found the information in the Barrington Manual 3rd Addition, 2014 page 438 second to last paragraph. Thats all I did to stop the timing light from flickering at higher RPM's.

Back to the garage.......................

skychs
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Advancer

Kurt ...........
That certainly made the biggest difference. I dropped the points gap down to .013 and it put me right on the S mark. It even got me closer to the F mark at higher RPM's. Now that Im in the ball park it shouldn't take too much to get it purring just right.

Thanks again for all the input. Once again I couldn't do any of this without everyones help.

I have to admit I also use the Clymer M308 BMW 500-600cc twins 1955-1969 manual. On page 19 in the stroboscopic timing instructions it does say "Increase engine speed to about 5800 rpm. The F mark on the flywheel should appear in the inspection hole and line up with the reference mark". Where they got 5800 rpm's I don't know but its there in print.

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Yeah, mine say that too.

Yeah, mine say that too. Guess we can use them for kindling! I have a version of Cylmers that is also for the /5/6 bikes. Next to the 5800 for /2 bikes, it says 2600 for /5/6/ bikes. I certainly agree with 2600 (or maybe 3000-3200) for post 1969 bikes.

I looked in the owners manual for these bikes. Not sure if this is where it comes from, but the manual says the RPM for max horsepower is 5800 (R50/R60) and 7000 for R69S. While it's true that 5800, or 4800, or 3800 would work, since the advance is limited at a certain RPM, there's no worthwhile reason to go so high. Me thinks that a number like 3000 is good. And more generally, the F-mark should never leave the window once it is at full advance. The only reason your shooting for a specific RPM is to know that the advance curve, created by the small springs as they slowly resist the weights coming out, is close to desired. Seems like if it was 5800 RPM, the bike would be a dog at 3000, 4000 RPM.

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Head temps

skychs wrote:

Just curious. I have a IR heat thermometer. What would an average head/ header temp be?

Just came back from a 1 hour ride, air temp~75f. Heads at the plug ~250f, a bit higher at the header nut.

Icarus

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I've been using this style of

I've been using this style of timing light for maybe 7 years.. love it!

https://behrents.com/parts/flafr1001.asp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1_CI3-Tn4wIVE...

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the 250 at the head is good

the 250 at the head is good temperature I would say. The higher the compression of the engine, the higher the temperature will be.
I usually measure between the 2 cooling fins which are between the plug and the head gasket.
My R69S could get easily to a close to 300F if it needs to work hard (uphill or high speed) but 250F would be nomal after a good run. Strolling around I get around 200F on my R50 and R67 ... as said, the R69S always a bit hotter.
My R75 war rig runs easily up to 330F when working a bit harder ... rarely below 275F. Guess the overall weight (500kg) doesn't help

best
Klaus

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Timmng issue

skychs wrote:

Kurt ...........
That certainly made the biggest difference. I dropped the points gap down to .013 and it put me right on the S mark. It even got me closer to the F mark at higher RPM's. Now that Im in the ball park it shouldn't take too much to get it purring just right.

Thanks again for all the input. Once again I couldn't do any of this without everyones help.

I have to admit I also use the Clymer M308 BMW 500-600cc twins 1955-1969 manual. On page 19 in the stroboscopic timing instructions it does say "Incre ase engine speed to about 5800 rpm. The F mark on the flywheel should appear in the inspection hole and line up with the reference mark". Where they got 5800 rpm's I don't know but its there in print.

The 5800 rpm refers to the point the engine develops max horsepower not the rpm needed to check for full advance
3000rpm is a good speed to check for full advance

Changing point gap
This was only done because at one point the aftermarket and even the noris replacement points were made not to original specs and one could not get the adjustment plate to open at .016 for the S reference
The fix was to change the point gap or make the adjustment holes longer to allow .016 gap to align the S mark

The points in the last few years I have purchased do not have this problem
I only like the points to open at .016 at the S mark only because as the point block wears you only have to reset the points to .016 and your timing again will be correct

I did today check what Klaus suggests his method of checking advance
I put the Flywheel at the F mark and rotated the advance unit and indeed the point opened at full advance as they should

If you cant get the same results then for some reason your advance unit is not rotating fully as is should

Tommy

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IMO the 0.016" setting is

IMO the 0.016" setting is just a starting point. You may need to move it due to variations in the total advance set up. The bogus points I had heard were so bad (ie, the rubbing block was way too tall) that no setting was possible to get the bike to run. As I said, the points gap was much more critical on 6 and 8 cylinder cars. For those engines, remember that the points would close and then open 6 or 8 times. Going around 360 degrees, the point gap was a much bigger percentage of the total rotation. If the point gap was too large, then the points didn't remain closed long enough to fully saturate the coil and the car would misfire.

Start with 0.016" and if you can make slight adjustments on the backing plate to get into tune, you're gold. But if you can't rotate the points plate far enough, then adjust the points gap...don't hog out the holes as I've heard people do...ugh! For two cylinder bikes, it really isn't that big of a deal what the gap is...as long as you have some.

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schrader7032 is on your ignore list. Click here to view this pos

schrader7032 wrote:

IMO the 0.016" setting is just a starting point. You may need to move it due to variations in the total advance set up. The bogus points I had heard were so bad (ie, the rubbing block was way too tall) that no setting was possible to get the bike to run. As I said, the points gap was much more critical on 6 and 8 cylinder cars. For those engines, remember that the points would close and then open 6 or 8 times. Going around 360 degrees, the point gap was a much bigger percentage of the total rotation. If the point gap was too large, then the points didn't remain closed long enough to fully saturate the coil and the car would misfire.

Start with 0.016" and if you can make slight adjustments on the backing plate to get into tune, you're gold. But if you can't rotate the points plate far enough, then adjust the points gap...don't hog out the holes as I've heard people do...ugh! For two cylinder bikes, it really isn't that big of a deal what the gap is...as long as you have some.

Why
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Tommy

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Final

Ok .....
I went back in, centered the main plate to the notch and tweaked the points plate just a tad clockwise. I inspected the advancer. Both springs are identical and in good shape. The points are set to .015 and the static check is almost dead on to the S mark. With the advancer wide open the static check is dead on the F mark. I impressed myself with that one.

The running dynamic timing at idle is almost dead on the S but the infamous F mark is still allusive. I think I see it every once is awhile but if I do it appears and disappears really fast.

Anyway, the bike purrs. It pulls strong and it rides better than ever. The test today will be a 100 mile ride up to Graves Mountain Lodge in Syria Virginia to attend a vintage bike rally. So wish me luck.

Thanks again for everyone input and advise.

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good luck

If you have a infrared thermometer, bring it and check both sides if the temperatures are in the same ballpark.

If not, I would check the F mark on both sides. Squeeze the wings of the advance mech to full advance and turn the engine slowly. Make a little mark when your buzzer signals opening of the contact. Then turn a second time and check the other side and see, if/how far the buzzer signal is apart.

Your static test shows that the advancer mech seems to work correct. However, make sure you really squeeze the wings apart all the way (it will push against the little stop spring and even bend it a little bit.

good luck for your trip
Klaus

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Keep an eye on your plug

Keep an eye on your plug colors after the ride.
Also, make sure you have zero resistance wires and caps.

Rob

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