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Anthony fish
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This is a follow up from a previous thread. The bike stalled occasionally and then did not start at all, I changed the coil and condenser and it fired up fine. I noticed the exhaust temperatures were different so I adjusted the timing by setting the magneto rotor and setting points and the bike started up and ran fine but was still hard to start. Then when I put the front cover on I did not realize I pinched the brown with black stripe attached to the coil. After repairing the pinched wire the bike was very difficult to start and I could only get it started once now there is no spark at all. As I said, the coil and condenser are new. Would pinching the wire and the bare wire grounding out kill the coil or condenser, should I have 6volts on the coil terminal when the ignition is on? I do not have Voltage there.

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

Twocams
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The BMW /2 Electrics book by

The BMW /2 Electrics book by Doug Rinckes. Shows that brown/black going from Mag to #2 Ignition lug in head light. Does that wire have continuity from #2 to the mag? Wire you repaired. Also do you have spark at the points when kicking bike over, if not start there. When pushing the key in do you have power anywhere? Inside the head light bucket. In other words is the ignition working and not killing the bike.
When I had difference in exhaust pipes it was always one of the carburetors that was out of adjustment a little.

twocams

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wa1nca
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No spark

Anthony fish wrote:

This is a follow up from a previous thread. The bike stalled occasionally and then did not start at all, I changed the coil and condenser and it fired up fine. I noticed the exhaust temperatures were different so I adjusted the timing by setting the magneto rotor and setting points and the bike started up and ran fine but was still hard to start. Then when I put the front cover on I did not realize I pinched the brown with black stripe attached to the coil. After repairing the pinched wire the bike was very difficult to start and I could only get it started once now there is no spark at all. As I said, the coil and condenser are new. Would pinching the wire and the bare wire grounding out kill the coil or condenser, should I have 6volts on the coil terminal when the ignition is on? I do not have Voltage there.

Brown/blk wire
It would not damage the coil or condenser
This wire is grounded when the key is out only to kill the engine
You can disconnect this wire inside the front housing and you should have spark

No you won't measure 6 volts at the coil terminals because it is a magneto system and does not need a battery to work

I suspect if you have no spark check that your points are indeed opening and closing with a ohm meter
You must first disconnect the wire going to the coil to get a proper on off reading and key in

Always start with new or known good plugs as your plugs could be wet do the lack of spark while trying to start engine if the points were not working

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Tommy Byrnes
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312Icarus
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You should not have any

You should not have any voltage at the coil! It is a magneto ignition that generates it own currrent when it spins. Rip all the guts of all the wiring out of the bike, un ground the magneto and the bike will still run.

Do you have any spark at the plugs, with the plugs out? Take the ground wire off the coil and see if you have spark. The ignition system is dead nuts simple once you understand it.

Icarus

Anthony fish
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No spark

The points are opening and closing and I’m using the device sold by Benchmark Works to adjust the timing so no need to disconnect the coil wires.
I will take your advice and change the plugs, they are new but you never know I guess.
I’m happy that I am not supposed to have voltage at the coil, I was starting to think the wiring was the problem. Although the bike did run fine recently

Thanks for the advice
Anthony

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

Anthony fish
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I do not have spark with the

I do not have spark with the plugs out and where would I see a spark with the coil wire off? And the wire your talking about is the wire that comes from the key switch. I just replaced the coil with the Emerald Island coil which has a separate ground wire.

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Anthony

1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

Twocams
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Do you have any spark at the

Do you have any spark at the points. Without the Benchmark thing. Everything hooked up, key on. Kick the to start. Do you have spark at the points? If not you will never have spark at the plugs. Just because the points are opening and closing dont mean they are sparking.

twocams

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johnpst
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6V SYSTEMS ARE DIFFERENT

Aloha,

Sounds like you are doing the right work so, let's continue it.

First, the damaged conductors is a known, if you have crushed and possibly severed some of the conductors in the strand, it should be replaced. 6V systems require twice the current to do the same job as a 12V system. That's why larger conductors are used on the 6V systems. Ohms LAW is not a suggestion.

Visual inspection; verify by looking and wiggling all conductors are terminated correctly and routed as to not short or ground somewhere. Make darn sure all of the terminations are on tinned wire and termination screws are not sitting on insulation.

Verify the safety probes just below the spark plug terminations on the coil are at 11mm and not attracting spark that should be going to the spark plugs.

Verify the terminations on the coil are tight, tinned wire, and not on insulation.

Verify the high tension leads are; 1. correct for your vintage, 2. fully terminated at both ends, 3. the plug caps are not cracked or otherwise leaking to ground, and 4. the conductor insulation through the engine compartment and at the exit from the crank case are well insulated and not leaking. They are cheap and there is at least half of this conductor you cannot see.

Now for testing. First thing to do is to pull the plugs, lay them on the cylinder head insuring they are grounded, and kick the bike. Preferably in a dimly lit room. You should have a nice bright blue spark with some orange in it. Walk your troubleshooting systematically backward from there and don't get distracted by all the "it might be" statements. It shouldn't take much more that an hour and a half to troubleshoot from the plugs to the ignition switch.

Verify static timing. Points are opening and not damaged and your condenser is properly terminated. Make sure the condenser is not shorted to ground.

You state you've changed the coil so, we'll assume for now it's fine.

Verify there is plenty of magnetism in the magneto rotor.

Follow the ignition wiring to the headlamp and verify it's properly wired, terminated, and conducting properly.

Test the switch in the headlamp. Verify the contacts are clean and fully conducting.

Keep at it. What ever it is will be simple once you find it.

John

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wa1nca
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John wroteFollow the

John wrote
Follow the ignition wiring to the headlamp and verify it's properly wired, terminated, and conducting properly.

Test the switch in the headlamp. Verify the contacts are clean and fully conducting.

Just remove the brn/blk wire from the side of the coil
This will verify that that wire is not shorting out up to the headlight and that the switch is not shorting out
If you then get a spark and get the bike running you will have to connect that wire, stall the bike, or turn off the gas to kill the engine

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Anthony fish
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I have checked all the wiring

I have checked all the wiring and the system and I believe that I must either have a defective new coil or the rotating magnet is weak.
Will keep you posted

Thanks very much for the insight
Anthony

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

johnpst
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EASY TESTING

Aloha,

Sorry to hear but, easy to test.

On the coil, you should have very little, like 0.5 ohm resistance between the +/- terminals or less. Higher= bad. Infinity = the patient is terminal.

Measure between the positive or negative to either of the high tension output terminals. ~29.5k ohms should be good. Old coils, so I've been told, will work well down to about 13k ohms and definitely fail below 11k ohms. Expect an OEM coil to be weaker than a newer built coil like Emerald Isle.

Take a 6" adjustable wrench. Place it flat against the magneto magnet. If it can pretty readily or closely hold the wrench by magnetism, it's good. It might be simpler to use a good steel bolt for this. The concept is the same. If steel will stick and you have to work a little to get it off, odds are, you don't have a magnet problem.

Hope all this helps. We're getting pretty deep in the weeds now. Good luck.

John

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Anthony fish
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Proper testing

John,
That is great advice, I am surprised there is none of the test methods you mentioned in circulation.
I have sent the complete magneto assembly to Benchmark Works for testing.
I am anxious to test the components when I get them back, just for general knowledge. Such a simple electrical system with so many questions.

Thank You,
Anthony

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

Anthony fish
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Still having a problem

Well when I got the magneto back with a new condenser I was able to get the bike started but then it was hard to restart especially when hot. Then I came to realize one cylinder had low compression so I pulled the cylinders apart and changed all the piston rings and adjusted the valves. Then after readjusting the points and timing the bike started fairly quickly and even after shutting it off it started back up even when hot.
I tried to start it again today and I don’t even have a spark, so what could be killing the spark? All the wiring checks out, the only thing I haven’t checked is the kill wire on the coil could it be possibly grounding out at times. I will check that tomorrow.
What condition would kill the condenser if that has gone bad again? Is it possible to damage the magneto system in any way?

Thanks,
Anthony

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wa1nca
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No spark

A condenser only will go bad with age not because of a short
Your mag tested ok at benchmark so it should work ( no metal fillings stuck to the magnets) even if your timing is off you should still have spark
Did you disconnect the brn/blk wire (kill wire from the side of the coil) to see if you have spark?

Tommy

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Anthony fish
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The brown/black wire

The brown/black wire disconnected, fresh coil and condenser (just to start with fresh parts)
The bike started and restarted 3 times then nothing. The next step I think will be the rotating magnet, it is so strange that I keep losing the spark. When I do get the bike running it runs great and idles perfectly.

I’ll keep you guys posted on the results

Thanks,
Anthony

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wa1nca
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Magnet

I wouldn't think the magnet would be intermittent
Don't give up
Yes please post results

Tommy

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miller6997
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Disassemble magneto?

Some time ago, I had a similar poltergeist problem that was driving me nuts. Craig Vechorik and one or two people on this forum advised me to remove the mag, completely disassemble it, and carefully clean all the metal surfaces. There are at least three different metals involved--brass, steel, and aluminum--and even when the mag looks clean, corrosion that's not readily visible can be present where the dissimilar metals are in contact. Cleaning those surfaces solved my problem.

[EDIT: I see from your earlier post that Vech has already inspected your mag, so it is unlikely that my suggestion will do you any good.]

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Anthony fish
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I THINK I GOT IT!!!!!!

After 3 coils, 4 condensers, new piston rings (I had low compression) valve adjustments, noumorous timing adjustments and point gap adjustments, Oh, and don’t forget new spark plugs. I spoke to Vech today, He said it seems like I took all the right steps and it could only be the condenser. He had a similar story a few years ago, and it turned out to be a few bad condensers.
So, I go to the local auto supply picked up a condenser for a Ford 351 V8 ( Vechs advice) and vualla the bike fires up and more importantly fires up again and again.
I can’t be sure but it looks like I got a couple of bad condensers. How do you test this mysterious device?
The true test will be after taking an extended ride on the bike, but I’m a lot further along that I’ve ever been.

Thank for all the advice guys.

Anthony

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

312Icarus
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I don’t think you bother

I don’t think you bother testing...for the few bucks, throw the old ones far, far away. Intermittent hard starting is a classic bad condensor. Buy a spare from the Auto parts store and be done with it.

Icarus

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I second that!

Throw them away.

For future reference - the bike will run without a condensor. The condensor's only function is to protect the points from burning up. It reduces the arc (spark) on the points. If you ever suspect you have a bad one, disconnect it. Don't run it like that for long or you will be replacing the points soon but it is a good way to eliminate the condensor from the mix when troubleshooting. If your condensor is bad and that is the only problem - you will see spark as soon as you disconnect it.

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Anthony fish
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Now for fine tuning

Now that I resolved the condenser problem time to go back and check all the settings (timing, points, carbs etc.) but as of now I
The bike starts on 2-3 kicks and runs smooth
For sure going to carry some spare condensers, I have 4 on order.

On to the next thing, enjoying the bike!

Thanks guys,
Anthony

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1969 R60/2, 1977 R100/7, 1988 K100RS, 2017 R Nine T

johnpst
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CONGRATULATIONS

Aloha,

Here's a story on a similar note on a completely different machine. I Did a job about ten years ago where I completely redesigned and replaced the electronic control system for a turbine. I had one "ice cube" relay that no matter what I did, just didn't work. I could test the relay in the shop and it all worked. This part is a $50.00 part and consists of a small electromagnet, a quartz timer, multiple contacts, and wire. Not complicated at all. At the point of having to test the turbine, we bypassed this relay and get the rest of the system working. Once we got it working, we went back and studied the problem.

Me and two other engineers sat around a wire spool for almost 12 hours testing every component in this and three other brand new relays. Everything from magnetic flux to impedance of the conductors. We geeked the living c$^p out of this. We checked and rechecked the circuit multiple times. We finally tested the terminations to pin on the mount. We found that all of the conductors were wired from the factory one terminal off. When we called the manufacturer their response was, "we've been waiting for your call." We had a run of 500 parts that were incorrectly wired. 250 went to a single customer. 250 went to shelf pick retailers. You must have gotten one of those. How many do you need?"

Point? Manufacturers have bad days.

Good job. Keeping at it can be frustrating but, we can all learn from it so, thanks!

John

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