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zambiabustop
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Does anyone have an approximate idea about the price of an R17 in restored condition? Are there any negative aspects about this model that would make its purchase not recomendable?

Matteo
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Are you kidding me?

Wow, not many r17s out there. I would say the price range would be between 25k to 50k (my guess). If the frame and the engine left the factory together, as verified by BMW Archives, it would be at the high end. Before I would spend that kind of money, I would get a verifiable history on the bike. At the low end would be a genuine r17 motor and transmission with a r12 frame and other repro parts. I assume it is a running bike.

If it is less than 25k, don't buy it. Just send me the seller's info Smile

zambiabustop
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R17 price

It seems that the engine and frame were bought separately although both belong to original R17s. I suppose this may lower the price considerably. The important question is: could this fact adversely affect the performance, reliability, and durability of the bike?

zambiabustop
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R17 price

I have only watched a video showing that the bike starts and revs normally, but I haven't seen yet how the bike rides. According to the owner the bike has only done 5 kilometres since restoration.
It also seems that all the bike parts (tank, fenders, etc) were purchased separately as well.
I wouldn't like to make a miscalculation and then kick myself to death. Any suggestions please?

zambiabustop
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R17 price

Where could I find the real frame numbers of the R17s?

schrader7032
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What do you mean by "real"

What do you mean by "real" frame numbers? If you click on BMW Models on the left side of the screen and then type R17 into the search box, you'll see the engine/frame numbers that BMW issued. If I recall correctly, engine/frame numbers didn't match out of the factory. The BMW Archive group can provide information about what might have left the factory, but I'm not sure how far back their information goes and/or how detailed it is.

I have a book titled "BMW - Motorcycles of the Century". It provides a good overview and pictures of models from 1923 to 2000. For the R17, they give 2 out of 5 "motorcycles" for spare parts availability and 5 out of 5 for collectors value. They list a price from 20K to 26K euros.

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zambiabustop
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R17 price

The Frame/Engine numbers given by the BMW models (left of the screen) are 501 - 6500 / 77001 - 77436 but the number that appear on the attached picture is 84642. Shouldn't it be a number somewhere between 501 and 6500?

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Bruce Frey
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R12 and R17 share the same

R12 and R17 share the same frame numbers (P501-24728), so only BMW archives can tell you if the frame number belonged to an R12 or an R17. They can also tell if the engine and frame belong together along with the date of manufacture and where it was delivered to. Check with them.

That frame stamp does not look like a BMW stamp to me.

Some have said that there are physical differences between R12 and R17 frames, but I do not know if that is true or what the differences might be.

In my view, there would not be any performance or durability issues with an R17 motor in an R12 frame, but value would be much less.

Caution....I think it is possible to build an R17 replica motor from an R12 block and reproduction parts. What does the motor stamp look like?

Bruce

Darryl.Richman
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These are all valid concerns,

These are all valid concerns, and I agree with Bruce Frey that the frame stamp doesn't look like the numbers that BMW used on this model.

It is quite possible to "build" an "R17" motor out of a much less expensive and common R12 motor. For example, here is a cylinder head for an "R17": http://www.oldtimergarage.eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_29_77_91&.... The cylinders and other parts are available too.

Because it's relatively easy to build the much more valuable R17 out of an R12, one must be very careful to make sure one is getting a real one. There are many examples of BMW frames and motors being ground down and restamped, but it is apparently difficult to do well because there are so many that are badly done.

This is why you should send the frame and motor numbers and photos of them to the BMW Group Archive at info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com and get an opinion from them. They are usually pretty quick about responding.

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zambiabustop
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R17 price

Attached is a picture of the R17 engine. The thing is that if you insert this engine number in the cell below the BMW Models (on the left of this screen) and press Search it confirms that the number is an original R17 engine number, but when you insert the frame number (84642) it indicates that the frame belongs to a K100RS2 - Valve (?!).
I just don't get it!

I will e-mail to BMW archives. Thanks for the advice.

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Ian R11
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To me the engine number does

To me the engine number does not appear original.

Note the different form in digits on a case I have that is just a few numbers different. This case has been in my (and my father's) possession for over 60 years and not been tampered with.

Incidentally the number on my case now also appears on an "original matching numbers" R17. I have omitted the last number as I have no desire to upset the owner of this machine.

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Matteo
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I agree, the numbers look too

I agree, the numbers look too crisp and not centered. For me it still may be a good buy if the price is right. It is not a collector's bike but it might be a cool replica bike to ride around.

VintageSalesand...
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VBMWMO #7368
Corona, CA
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engine number

Hi,

If the R12 and R17 are stamped in the same way, as I assume they are, look below the right side barrel - there will be a number stamped into the block that should be the same as the engine number on this boss. These "hidden" numbers are harder to fake as they are directly into the case surface, and not on a thick pad that can be ground down.

Check that area for the "real" number.

Jeff

zambiabustop
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R17 price

I have sent the pictures to the BMW Group Archives. Let's see what they have o say.

zambiabustop
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R17 price

Below is the response just received fro BMW Group Archive.

From:
Subject: AW: BMW R17
Date: 4 February 2016 18:54:34 GMT+4
To:

Dear Mr Navarro,

Thank you for your email.

The engine number 77334 would fit to a BMW R 17. However, the delivery records are not complete anymore, so we do not have any further information on that number.

The frame number 84642 would fit to a BMW R 4, but of course we cannot say if it's really a R 4 frame. The number is definitely restamped though.

We hope this is helpful for you.

Yours sincerely,

Julia Oberndörfer

***Da wir momentan in unsere neuen Räumlichkeiten an der Moosacher Straße 66 in München umziehen und parallel dazu ein neues Datenbanksystem einführen, müssen wir unseren Service ab September 2015 einschränken. Benutzerbetreuung vor Ort und Bestellung von Archivprodukten ist dann leider nicht mehr möglich, die Beantwortung von Anfragen wird ebenfalls eingeschränkt. Wir bitten Sie dafür um Verständnis. Ab April 2016 können wir Ihnen dann wieder unser gesamtes Leistungsspektrum anbieten.***

***At the moment, we are moving to our new premises at Moosacher Straße 66 in Munich and at the same time introduce a new database system, therefore have to restrict our service from September 2015. We will no longer be able to assist users at our location and it will also not be possible to order archive products. We will also have to restrict our service answering enquiries. We hope you will appreciate that this is unavoidable. From April 2016, we will once again be able to provide you with our full range of services.***
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mdunn
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Show us some photos of this

Show us some photos of this frame and I will tell you if its a R4 or not.

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zambiabustop
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R17 price

I don't have pictures of the frame alone. I have attached a number of pictures of the bike where the frame is more or less visitle.

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zambiabustop
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R17 price

The questions that come to my mind are: How will this affect the bike's handling? And what could be a reasonable price for a bike that is obviously not an original?

mdunn
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Do you have a photo of the

Do you have a photo of the left side of the frame, up near the badge? A bike that's not a real R17 is not worth what they are asking I can assure you this. More photos please.

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schrader7032
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Interesting...things are

Interesting...things are moving to an updated database system. I wonder what that means. Individual user lookup online? More details than previously supplied? Inquiring minds would like to know!!!

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mdunn
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I am almost positive they

I am almost positive they wont allow the public to look up numbers themselves. Lately in the last few years they have required proof of motor, vin and typenschild photos of the Flat tank bikes as the increasing number of fakes is on the rise. So I don't see BMW doing this ever.

Mike

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zambiabustop
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R7 price

Attached are a couple of pictures of the left side of the frame. I have no doubt now that this is not a real R17. The engine seems real though.

  • r17_2.jpg
  • r17_1.jpg
Ian R11
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The engine could be a genuine

The engine could be a genuine R17 but I’m sure it has been re-stamped. It could also be R12 with 8000+ euro of new manufactured parts used to convert it not including carbs etc, I cant tell from the photos.

I have seen this bike advertised and the owner offers it “sold as is, please ask and look before buying” That to me is inviting the obvious direct questions to be asked. Have you asked direct questions relating to originality with the seller? My R17 lower case has the engine number in a slightly smaller form under the right barrel clearly visible as Jeff suggests, ask for a photo.

While it does appear a nice machine values are not easy to place on totally authentic original bikes and in my opinion even harder on those with non-original numbers. The obsession with matching numbers and values causes problems like this. To me..... a non-matching engine and frame number bike (correct types) should be only slightly less desirable than matching, but as soon as you tamper and re-stamp it looses it's honesty and appeal.

zambiabustop
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R17 price

I completely agree with you. The seller claims he purchased the frame in a motorcycle swap meet and he thought that it was a real R17 frame, something not credible to me since he has a motorcycle business and should have enough experience to tell an original frame from a fake one. In addition, he does not show much honesty by trying to pass his bike as an original R17. If it were an original R17 it would have been purchased by a collector in a matter of hours (the bike has been advertised now for weeks). The other thing that was worrying me is that he hasn't ridden the bike and doesn't seem to have any intention of riding it (the bike has done 5 Km!). Last summer I purchased an R51/3 from Greece that had been restored and had only done 70 kilometres. I am still paying the consequences of my foolishness.

Matteo
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Magneto vs Dynamo

I see this R17 has a magneto. For the R12 I know the military bikes only used magnetos and I think that the civilian bikes used Dynamo but maybe not exclusively. Is this right? Did any of the R17s use magnetos?

I found the ad for this R17 and I see this bike is in Poland. There were a lot of R12s left in Poland after the war. I can't imagine that many r17 were used in the war and far less in Poland. It wasn't considered a sidecar bike. How did this R17 make its way to Poland?

Depending on the price, this may be a neat reproduction bike, but it does not look like a collector bike.

schrader7032
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The BMW Profiles series of

The BMW Profiles series of books that I have indicates the R17 was a battery ignition.

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salmeland
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R-17 framenr.

Hi, I got an orginal R17, it was delivered to the first owner nearby Bergen in Norway, the 14 of May 1936, I got the registrationpaper.
But before I got it in my hand someone has change the engine to an R12, but I think I got the orginal magneto, Bosch B245 RS 108.
But can someone tell me if only the cylinder and top are different to the R12 engine?
The picture show the orginal place on the frame.
I work with this project now, try to get it ready for this summer,but with an R12 engine.

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Ian R11
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Yorkshire uk
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The R17 and R12 engine cases

The R17 and R12 engine cases are the same, but crank (shorter stroke), cam, heads, barrels are different otherwise all parts are interchangeable. I have an S5 R11, (essentially R12 engine) and throughout its life has had all R17 engine parts fitted into the R11 engine case and all the R11 engine parts fitted in the R17 case. The R17 OHV cam can be used in the side valve engine and it gives better performance.
Do you have an R17 or R12 engine number on your engine cases?

salmeland
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Hi, I have 5 engine cases,

Hi,
I have 5 engine cases, but only one have number,(the other ones have not machined surfaces where the number should be turned into) the number are from an R12, delivered to the army ordnance department Germany 1940. But in my paper, the engine number delivery on my R17 frame are:77258.
But I have 7 crank, do you have som messure so I can find the right one?

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Ian R11
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VBMWMO #8148
Yorkshire uk
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I don't have an R17 crank to

I don't have an R17 crank to offer specific measurements from. Unfortunately my uncle scrapped it with the heads in the 1960's.
I'm not sure from the comments above if you have one complete R12 engine or mixture of R12/17 parts. If you hold your cranks between centres and rotate, the connecting rod will have a stroke of 68mm for R17 or 78mm for R12.

mdunn
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Riverside, CA
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That Frame is not a

That Frame is not a R4....

Mike

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lui
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uk
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The frame could be

The frame could be replika,they making in poland.
R12 r11 r17 frame would cost around replika 1000euros.
What usually happen ,,they find a engine with gearbox ,than build the whole bike from it.
Or could be r12 frame converted into r17,myself i got r11 replika frame .
To find original r17 frame almost not posible.

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