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msgj
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Hello – My name is Marshall, and I’m a “newbie” to this forum. I have a short story to tell and am soliciting advice.

Last week at my father-in-laws funeral in central NC I was talking to my wife’s uncle (brother of deceased) about motorcycles. He quit riding a year ago at age 83 when he sold his Goldwing with a side car. I was telling him about the bells and whistles on my ’09 R1200GSA and he noted he used to ride BMWs and loved them, in fact he has one in his barn. My “antenna went up” and I asked him to tell me about it. He said he bought it new in 1966, it’s a half a regular BMW motor turned sideways, and it’s been in his barn since 1972. He parked it after reportedly going about 70mph on I40 when the interstate was new and a lady flew past him in a Cadillac so fast it knocked the left rear view mirror off. He said he had small children at the time and didn’t want to take the risk riding it. I asked if I could see it and if he was interested in selling it if it was something I like. He said “yes”.

So I went this week to see the bike which turned out to be an R27. I’m hoping the picture comes up. Here’s what I know about it:
- All original, one owner, including original manuals, etc.
- Has not been started since 1972
- 11,3XX miles
- Even after 42 years the motor turned over freely when I pushed down on the kick starter with my hand (only rotated it a couple of times)
- Clutch engages and disengages freely
- Gears “click” and shift freely
- Throttle opens and closes like new
- I could not get the gas cap off (probably rusted on)
- Bike is dirty with a lot of surface rust, some areas like the old air pump are rusted badly. It is rusted worse on the right side as it’s been in pole barn with three side enclosed and one open –
- Under the dirt the paint is shiny
- Body seems straight, other than handlebar looks bent in on the left side (like every dirt bike I’ve had).
- Seat cover is still soft and feels like new

I looked up values quickly online and made an offer of $2,400 which he quickly accepted. After reading some more I am thinking I probably offered too much? I want to give a fair price, but don’t want to rip myself off either.

My goal is to breath life back into the old R27, but I don’t care about having a show bike. I think it’s a way cool bike and I want her to be operational and drive it back over to my uncle-in-law for him to possibly take a spin on it again (at 84).

Questions:
1) based on the aforementioned, should I re-consider my offer? What would be a “good number”
2) besides the obvious of not painting it purple and putting an extended chrome swing on arm it – what should I do / not do to maintain and increase the value (other than running)?
3) I’m a wrench turner, know my way around the newer R bikes pretty well and I love the simplicity of this bike – are there any “watch out fors” with this model? (nice to not worry about servo brake controllers and blowing another electronic driven shock).
4) Besides oil changes, de-rusting the tank , a new battery, is there anything special I need to do before trying to fire her up?
5) If there are really rusted parts, is it better to stay “all original” and try to de-rust and coat or buy replacements?
6) Is the gas cap counterclockwise to remove? Is stuck and didn’t want to over force?
7) What’s the purpose of the little trap door on the tank?

I know I’ll have bunches of questions on restoration down the road, I just want to get her in the garage, tagged, and in the wind at this point.

Thanks in advance for the feedback and wisdom!

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

iagins
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A few answers: 1) I've seen

A few answers:

1) I've seen R27's in very nice condition going recently for $7-9K on eBay. Not sure what one in the condition you describe would go for.

2) Depends upon what your ultimate goal is. As original as possible with "patina" is one way to go. Pebble Beach quality is the other extreme. My preference is the former - bikes are only original once.

3) I don't own one, so I can't say for sure.

4) Maybe clean the carb, change the plug, check the points, set the valves.

5) See 2) above.

6) Yes, counterclockwise.

7) That's the door to the tool kit compartment.

Ira Agins
Santa Fe, NM

msgj
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Patina

Ira - thank you so much. That is most helpful.

In order to maintain the patina, should I not try to "clean-up" the rims, engine block, and aluminum/chrome parts? the spokes have surface rust - should I leave it as such or try to remove?

Thanks again,
Marshall Gray
Hillsborough, NC

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

schrader7032
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Marshall - I think you do the

Marshall -

I think you do the natural cleaning things like trying to get rid of the oxidation and rust. The rust on the spokes could actually be a safety problem in the long term. I think people consider "patina" things like leaving the paint as-is, maybe touching up. I'm sure a thorough cleaning of the painted areas with some wax will provide nice surfaces which you could then live with. But if there are rust holes in the tank, serious dents, etc., then you probably want to bite the bullet and get that fixed which then leads you down the path of a more complete restoration.

Do the important mechanical things first, clean where it's necessary, then see how that works for the near term. Consider more detailing later on.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

iagins
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Again, it's all subjective.

Again, it's all subjective. But I would clean all the parts you mention.

To me, "patina" has more to do with the paint than anything else. I went over my R50/2 with a clay bar to remove as much of the ground-in dirt as I could, then used carnauba wax on it. It has all of its' dings, dents, and battle scars. I live in the Southwest, where the humidity is very low, the bike is garaged, and I don't generally ride it in the rain. So I've decided that the paint is unlikely to deteriorate any more than it has and doing nothing more than what I've done is good enough.

That is clearly not the case in NC, so you may want to do more. Some members in your part of the country could probably offer additional advice, but one thing I was toying with was just clear-coating the paint as-is to preserve it in its' present condition. I don't know how that would affect the value. I don't plan on selling mine, so to me that aspect was immaterial.

As always, YMMV.

Ira Agins
Santa Fe, NM

msgj
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Thanks so much...

Kurt and Ira - thanks so much, your advice is very helpful and in line with my thinking. I am going to try to get the price down a bit in case there are some major expenses. Hoping to pick up the bike this weekend, give her a bath, and on the mechanical. Looking forward to the challenge!

Regards,
Marshall

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

ScottA
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$2,400?

From you description and the photo, $2,400 doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
I believe you could turn it around without losing, if it came to that.

Your late model R27 will have the desirable 27/6 final drive ratio and high-capacity 15mm oil pump.
http://www.beemergarage.com/documents/204.pdf
http://www.beemergarage.com/documents/207.pdf

regarding vintage BMWs, this model is very economical and simple to work on.
In my experience, it's the sort of bike that puts grins on everyone's face.

another R27 came to light not long ago, maybe you've seen the report?
It's a good read as there were some complications that weren't initially apparent:
http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=966307

'hope you'll soon show more pics once the bike is in the sunlight with the loose stuff blown off.

-Scott

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'61 R27, '63 R60/2 etc.

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Please don't try to get the

Please don't try to get the price down.... that is such a tacky thing to do after agreeing on a price....$2400 is a fair (for both) price...
Feelings will be hurt and it is just not worth what little you can save...... When folks try that on me I usually get pretty upset....a deal is a deal....

Joel
Chester Ca.

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Powerdynamo Importer USA
http://rapose.biz/

msgj
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Price, Home, Exhaust...

Thanks Scott and Joel for the feedback. As noted I'm new to this and appreciate the feedback on the price. We mined her out of the barn this afternoon, loaded her up, and she's now in my garage after a non-detailed wash down. I did not try to re-negotiate price, although the muffler literally fell off the bike when I started rolling it and some of the rust is a bit more than I anticipated. Regardless, I'm excited and want to call in sick from work tomorrow with R27 fever!

I will upload some pictures later and the status.

I need an exhaust system, what are good sources for vintage parts?

Thanks so much!
Marshall

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

msgj
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Pre and Post bath.

A few pictures...

  • photo_1_2.jpg
  • photo_3_1.jpg
  • photo_4.jpg
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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

jimkav
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Cleaned up nice! I would do

Cleaned up nice!
I would do minimum & enjoy!

ScottA
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Good work!

msgj wrote:

what are good sources for vintage parts?
Marshall

one of the good parts sources: http://www.benchmarkworks.com/

Here is a pretty good resource for parts-drawings and associated part numbers:
http://www.motorrad-stemler.de/dcenter/down/r%2026-27.pdf

Congratulations!

-Scott

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'61 R27, '63 R60/2 etc.

ScottA
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R27 Reparaturanleitung
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You can go further with some

You can go further with some of the rust and oxydation on the unpainted surfaces with stiff nylon brushes. Don't use wire or brass brushes, as they will damage the surfaces. Also, you can dab some rustoleum rust treatment on rusted steel surfaces (get the "clear) to stop the rust from progressing. I use q-tips. It looks good. I think you got a good deal, and you will enjoy putting around on this machine. Try Moto-Bins.com for parts. Good luck!

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1961 R60/2
1963 R27
1966 R69S
1973 R75/5 LWB

msgj
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Key Replacement? Click Towards Transmission, Tires?

Thanks to each of you for the information, it is more valuable than you can imagine! Here are some pro's and cons so far:
Pros:
- Opened the trap door on the tank and found a complete tool kit, in great shape, in a canvas pouch - I wish my 09" Adventure came with a kit this nice!
- Also in the trap door was a cool little yellow can, unrusted, that I believe is a tire patch kit - "Victoria Vulcofux"
- Pulled the plug and there does not appear to be rust inside the cylinder (I must admit I thought about that in the night, couldn't sleep, and pulled the plug first thing this morning before going to work)
- Behind the air filter is clean - some minor spider webs, but no rust.
- Have original BMW "Instruction Manual" in great shape.
- Has Clymer "Workshop Manual and Handbook" for R50, R50S, R60, R69S, R26, R27 in great shape with $5 price printed on the front

Cons:
- My uncle-in-law can't find the key. When I look at the ignition it appears to be part of the frame, not sure how to replace? Should I get a locksmith, or try to find and install a replacement lock set?
- When I spin the rear wheel there is a very pronounced "click" at what appears to be the front of the drive shaft / transmission entrance - happens about every 1/4 of turn of rear wheel (in neutral, virtually no speed, just turning wheel/tire with hand) - Any thoughts?
- The header is totally shot in addition to the muffler that turned to dust.

Am going to order points, condenser, plug, air filter, gas cap gasket, exhaust system, hand grips, etc. while I start draining and replacing fluids, clean-up gas tank and fuel system.

Is it "culturally OK" to install new road bike tires? - hate riding on the ribbed type tires that are on it now (which are actually holding air and no dry rotted)

Thanks again for your feedback, much appreciated!

Marshall
-

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

Twocams
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Treat it like any other vehicle

that has been in storage a long time. Rebuild the carb, replace the fuel and lines. Mine had a leaky rear seal that soaked the shoes and are crumbling. Replace the tires and tubes. Which ones...you pick. My R96S sat from 1991 Im also replacing all the seals in engine and transmission. Rechroming the handle bars and risers. Powder coated the rear brake peddle, center stand & side stand. Most all else will be left....just cleaned up. i want it to look nice but not a total restoration.

Rich

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Twocams
92 R100RT/69 R69S
2004 Aprilia Atlantic 500cc single cylinder Scooter
83 Honda V65 Magna, fastest production bike in1983

schrader7032
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Quote: - My uncle-in-law

Quote:

- My uncle-in-law can't find the key. When I look at the ignition it appears to be part of the frame, not sure how to replace? Should I get a locksmith, or try to find and install a replacement lock set?

In the frame? The ignition switch should be under a sliding plastic knob at the top of the headlight bucket. No locksmith will have any knowledge about these. The key is more like a "nail" that pushes down into the hole and connects circuits inside the bucket. Duane has a discussion of ignition keys here:

http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/ignkeys/

Quote:

- When I spin the rear wheel there is a very pronounced "click" at what appears to be the front of the drive shaft / transmission entrance - happens about every 1/4 of turn of rear wheel (in neutral, virtually no speed, just turning wheel/tire with hand) - Any thoughts?

You might want to remove the clamps that hold the rubber boot on between the driveshaft tube and the transmission and investigate the bolts that are there. Make sure they're tight. Maybe have someone turn the rear wheel while you hold the boot back and listen.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

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Quote: - My uncle-in-law

Quote:

- My uncle-in-law can't find the key. When I look at the ignition it appears to be part of the frame, not sure how to replace? Should I get a locksmith, or try to find and install a replacement lock set?

The 'IGNITION' is not the ignition but the steering lock.

ScottA
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clunk at transmission to driveshaft interface

there is... or should be... a rubber 'hardy disc' (aka "guibo") there.
(I believe Mr. Schrader is thinking of his R69S, which is different in that respect).

The transmission output flange has two thumb-sized pins (180 degrees to each other) which fit into that rubber disc, as do the driveshaft input flange pins, at 90 degrees to the trans output pins.

The clunking may be due to that rubber (hockey puck looking thing) being kaput or fubar
Check it out, it's under the aluminum half-shell cover and easy to inspect.

Any tire you choose. The factory recommended size is best.
If you haven't already, don't hesitate to call and talk with the folks at Bench Mark Works... just give yourself a little time for listening.

You're taking lots of pics of this project, I hope?
I'm curious about the tool roll. Post-up a nice display photo of it, if you don't mind.

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schrader7032
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Quote:there is... or should

Quote:

there is... or should be... a rubber 'hardy disc' (aka "guibo") there.
(I believe Mr. Schrader is thinking of his R69S, which is different in that respect).

Righto! I have the rubber disk on my R25/2 but solid bolts on the R69S. But doesn't the R27 have the enclosed driveshaft which I thought meant they went to bolted connection at the transmission? Certainly, the early singles had the exposed Cardan shaft which uses the rubber disk and pins. Seems like this was the standard with the plunger rears. It's kind of hard to tell from some of the pictures I can see for the R27. I see what appears to be a "shroud" at the back of the transmission...maybe that's covering up the rubber disk connection.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

ScottA
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yes

enclosed driveshaft but the enclosure-housing is not oil-filled.
It's actually open at the front but the driveshaft input flange, etc. protects against stuff getting inside.

I looked at a parts diagram to check on your R25/3 assembly... of which I'm ignorant... and see it's similar to the R27 except for the shaft being exposed.

Marshall: another resource for parts checking is the MAX BMW parts fiche.
http://www.maxbmwmotorcycles.com/fiche/PartsFiche.aspx
(I wonder have you used MAX for R1200GSA parts?)

click on your model to view OEM availability and current pricing.
I use the exploded views for assembly reference as well, though it doesn't always represent that with 100% accuracy or clarity.

Please check all the rubber mounts.
Your engine & transmission has five including the one at top, hidden under the tank.

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Donovan
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Marshall, I'm a little late

Marshall,

I'm a little late to the party but congrats on your new bike. I live in Greensboro, NC pretty close to you and own an R25/3. A couple years ago I restored an R27 with a friend who still owns it so if you have any questions send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number.

R27 definitely has the hardy disc and they can be a pain to install. You are also going to hear about "slingers" if you are not already familiar with these. I can recommend a good local resource for slinger cleaning who is fair and reasonable and very close to you, but I'd get your bike running first and then worry about those later.

Thanks,
Donovan

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1955 R25/3
1971 R60/5

macbeemer
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As stated or implied above:

As stated or implied above: the lock on the frame is a steering lock. You can find a replacement with a key from a lot of sources, but if the steering isn't locked, don't worry about it. The ignition key goes into the top of the headlight, into the hole under the sprung shutter. If you haven't got a key, you can buy them from any number of places for any where from five to a hundred dollars. You can get one with the nice black plastic top, or the flat "wallet" style, each of which will do the job. in an emergency, you can fashion one from a 16 penny nail. The tool kit and tire patch kit are pretty cool. Hold on to them! Before you try to spin the exhaust nut, spray it with WD40, or something similar. You may lose the nut, but you don't want to lose the threads! The replacement exhaust is a simple installation, and I suggest stainless all the way, as long as you're in this far. Don't worry about the drive shaft clicking until you've re replaced the drive oil and let it find its places. This is a simple machine, so don't drive yourself crazy over thinking stuff. You will love this very much, around town.

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1961 R60/2
1963 R27
1966 R69S
1973 R75/5 LWB

schrader7032
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As I was corrected, there's

As I was corrected, there's no driveshaft oil in these models. The transmission to driveshaft connection is through a rubber disk (#6 on the link below):

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=0T15&mospid=48029&btnr=33_...

The Hardy disk on my R25/2 makes noises when I roll the bike around but it seems to be just the drive pegs working back and forth on the disk since the driveshaft and the output shaft on the transmission aren't necessarily on the same angle.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

VintageSalesand...
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Drive disc for R27

The R27 wants a hard brown rubber "X" shaped drive disc. That and 4 rubber rings - it is supposed to be better than the old version. Clicking when rolling is not unusual. Double check all of the up to 7 (not including the rubber muffler bushing) rubber engine mounts. If yours is the latest kind there 2 threaded bumpers that limit the fore and aft motor movement as well.

ScottA
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+1 Vintagesales

absolutely right about the rubber disc upgraded to a urethane X shaped (or Iron Cross-ish) thing plus the four rubber donuts, one for each peg.

About the rubber engine mounts: numbers 6 & 7 were I think only used on the early models, later deleted from production units.
My '61 would have them. The hardware and rubber bits are NLA.
In use the fore & aft isolators were found unnecessary and occasionally in the way of maintenance, at least that's the way I heard it.

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msgj
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Keys,Clunks, Parts, Rebuild, Tool Kits, and other Strangeness...

All - first a huge THANK YOU to each of your for responding. I'm really enjoying learning about these cool little bikes! I almost took a sick day from work to stay home and tinker on this thing, I've got "the fever".

Keys: I have confirmed my "newbie" status and deserve the IMF award. The 'nail" key was in the ignition, was looking for fork key.

Clunk: I feel much better after you alls feedback. I haven't taken it down to the "hockey puck" thing but what you're describing makes sense. I makes the sound when it first engages as if "slack" is being taken out of it, and when I stop the wheel.

Parts: Thank to y'alls advice I called Bench Marks Works to order (points, plug, condenser, fuel line, air filter, cork gasket for gas cap, handlebar grips, some Touratech panniers (kidding - will keep those buckets for the GSA), etc...) Told him what I was doing and was given so many helpful hints - what I liked best was "you don't need to do that" and not trying to sell me stuff.

Carb rebuild: So I called a local Indy Beemer shop and asked if he could rebuild the carb (I have never been rebuild one with a darn) and he asked about the model. When I told him about the bike he got very interested and told me I need to bring it in his shop for an inspection, and DO NOT try to start it as I will almost certainly blow the bottom rod bearing out since it has been sitting so long. Also said the "slinger pump" would need to be rebuilt. He recommended tearing it down for a total rebuild before doing anything? I noted that it had 11,300 miles on it and he said even if it was zero miles it should not be started due to sitting so long. He noted he could rebuild it for about $4K. So when I hung up I called Bench Mark Works back and asked them about starting it up and got a much different response - was told not to be overly concerned until it had about 20K on it, and I'd probably have leaks around my engine seals that would need to be replace (I liked that answer a lot better). Im thinking of sending the car to Bench Mark for rebuild as they have been so helpful - any thoughts?

Tool Kit - Some pics should be posted below. It's about the only thing on the bike that didn't have some indication of rust, probably because the pouch is sort of oily and the seal on the tank kit area was really tight.

Other Strangeness- I pulled the dip stick and the oil is dirty, but not stratified or abnormal looking. Uncle in-law said he only used Castrol in it - stuff looks like it could be ridden on today.

Next venture - drain and clean the tank, pull the carb, put a battery in it, see if I am getting a spark, lights, etc. Start cleaning more barnacles off of her.

Question: 1) Where is a good source of stainless steel exhaust (header and muffler)
2) Thought on swapping out for stainless steel bolts as I go along - I see these bolt kits, and most of mine look like they've been taken out of the bottom of a river, however are cleaning up OK. - Thoughts?

Donovan - will send you a message.

Thanks again!

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

Twocams
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Exhaust

I find that Bobs BMW has the best prices for my R69S and Ive been looking.

If nothing else I would remove the engine oil pan to see how much sludge is in there. i was surprised how much there was in mine. It was just messy goo. Then I decided to clean the slingers. All you need is a new pan gasket?

Rich

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Twocams
92 R100RT/69 R69S
2004 Aprilia Atlantic 500cc single cylinder Scooter
83 Honda V65 Magna, fastest production bike in1983

schrader7032
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I agree that the best thing

I agree that the best thing to do is drop the pan and clean everything up. The issue would be that if you didn't, it's possible that all of the sludge would be stirred up which would present a problem for the slingers. Slingers seem to need cleaning every 30-50K miles depending on care and use. In the old days, the days of non-detergent oil, I've heard people went 100K miles before even considering slinger service. Non-detergent oil would let all the particles settle out in the pan, thus not presenting too much of an issue for the slingers. A routine cleaning of the pan took care of that. Today's detergent oil holds all that in suspension giving it a chance to be captured in the slingers, thus maybe creating an issue for the crank bearings.

Both my R69S and R25/2 came to me with unknown maintenance backgrounds but were running machines. I thoroughly went over them to ensure good mechanical shape, then ran them about 1000 miles before deciding to tear them down. The R69S had about 27K miles and the slingers were 1/2 to 3/4 full. The R25/2 slingers were very clean...apparently somewhere in the past, it got a first over rebore so someone was in there. But now they're done and I can rest easy.

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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

Donovan
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Marshall, I would do as Kurt

Marshall,

I would do as Kurt did. Give your bike a really good looking over and get it running. I have put almost 1500 miles on my R25/3 which had been sitting for a long time, has similar mileage to yours and an unknown history. In fact I plan to ride it this afternoon. However, now that I have a good feel for the status and condition of the rest of the bike I will be cleaning the slingers this fall.

I think 4K is very high to have your slingers cleaned.

The name I sent you will do it for far less than that. Vech will also do a good job on slingers and a rebuild and you can even rent an engine crate if you want for shipping.

Donovan

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1955 R25/3
1971 R60/5

schrader7032
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I think $2K is more along the

I think $2K is more along the lines of a slinger and overall engine refurb. Those are the prices I've paid for my R69S and R25/2. However, in both cases, I disassembled all of the outside stuff (tranny, clutch, heads, jugs, electrics, etc.) and just carried my engine block to the rebuilder. I'm sure that saves quite a bit of labor for another shop to do. In the case of my R25/2, since Vech had everything, I asked him to reassemble the motor, so I missed out on the "fun" of putting it back together, but it just made more sense this way.

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Kurt in S.A.
'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

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Slingers/Oil/Batteries.

Rich, Kurt, Donovan,

I am taking your advice and ordered a oil pan pan gasket today. Will pull the pan and check sludge level. Also will install a rare earth magnet in the pan after cleaning as advised by Bench Mark and others. I'm hoping the parts come soon as I'm itching to get into it! Will take pics and or videos of what I find when she's opened up.

My focus now is the electrical system and seeing if I have juice to the plug/ lights, etc. I went by Auto Zone after work thinking I would easily pick up a 6 volt m/c battery. No luck, will try other vendors tomorrow.

As someone noted earlier - the more I get into this bike I'm amazed at how simple it is and I love that about it. Working on my GSA is like wrenching on the space shuttle at times!

Question on posting protocol - when I start with the oil, spark, etc. - should I upload pics via a different post based on subject, or continue this thread?

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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your preference

personally I'd like to see your progress in one running thread, mostly... with plenty of pics. Wink
but that's entirely up to you, AFAIK.

good deal having Donovan local to you for the FTF discussion and tips.

looking forward to the updates.

-Scott

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I had my buddy go back and

I had my buddy go back and check his receipts for having the slingers cleaned locally. The guy that did it charged $700 labor and did the full disassembly/reassembly. He also put in a new piston and rings along with all new seals. Everything else checked out OK. Total cost was $1200. That will be the guy I go to in the fall when I have my R25/3 done.

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1955 R25/3
1971 R60/5

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Question - Tank Inside Color - Tar - Rust

Donvon -I'd like to get the contact on the engine as well, a much better number.

Questions - I'm taking the tank off to clean-up/ derust.
(1) What color is the inside of the tank supposed to be? - is it a "rust colored primer" or maybe mine has just turned that color (see pics). I don't want to try to remove something that is supposed to be there.
Also, there is tar in the tank (was about 1/2 gallon of varnish left in the tank was valuable gas back during the energy crisis of '72 when she was put away).
(2) I'm assuming the tar will dissolve in gasoline - any thoughts on the best solvent?
(3) Once I get her running, what fuel should I use? Will I need Pb (lead) additive?

Thanks!
Marshall

  • color.jpg
  • Tar.jpg
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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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That is original primer in

That is original primer in the tank but it does look like you may have some rust issues in there too. How bad does it look down in there?

I've never had to clean a tank before but I do know your prep will be everything. I would try to get all the bad fuel/varnish/rust out that will come out and then run an inline fuel filter and see what comes out. You may get lucky if it isn't too bad in the bottom of the tank.

As for fuel, I run premium in my R25/3 and R60/5 but I do not run any additive. I do use an oil that has ZDDP in it.

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1971 R60/5

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Slingers on Singles

- Remember, that Singles are only generating 1/2 the slinger filling stuff per engine revolution..!

Jeff

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fuel and rust

AFAIK, fuel octane requirements are compression ratio driven, though some fine-tuning can be done with ignition timing.

Probably the R27 owners manual recommends an octane and I'd stick with that.
I'm away on vacation just now and don't have that information handy, plus I bumped the compression on my bike, so I'm not very helpful at the moment. :o/

That corrosion can be treated & stabilized using phosphoric acid. It's the active ingredient in many rust conversion solutions, and can be bought in high-purity concentrations via Amazon.
Plus it's very effective against aluminum oxidation.

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Exploratory Surgery Results

Fuel System (pics below)
TANK- Interior of tank is rusted but not too, too bad. Am treating it with Evap-o-rust. Stuff works great and won't attack the paint inside. The big bummer is the tar in the tank. I'm working on it. I find that with gas covering it and heated in the NC sun it becomes mobile (doesn't dissolve, but detaches from surface some). It's going to be a while and I don't anticipate an easy solution.
When done, in addition to fuel filter, I"m going to add magnets in the tank that I can access to help collect detached particulates. Am replacing petcock (see pic of tar-baby).

The pic of the oil container is crud that has been removed so far from the tank. There is one pic of a rust colored material that I though was metal, but it's more cork like that came out of the tank - it's looks important, anyone know what it is?

CARB - I was afraid I would have tar running out of the carb. Thankfully there was no fuel in the line from the tank to carb (petcock was off or clogged). When I removed the bowl at the base of the float there were large particulates. Mr. Magnet demonstrated more ferrous material - I'm hoping originated in tank rather than carb. Will disect more later.

INSIDE OF ENGINE - This is what I was holding my breath about. The oil (Castrol 30 W is all he ever ran in it) was not broken down at all. There was some, but not alot of sludge in the pan which cleaned up easily with Simple Green. Inside of the engine looks like new. I'm now not afraid to start it once I get fuel and electrical systems performing Smile

My bride has been in Italy all week with and coming home tonight. I have M/C parts all over the kitchen (actually thought of bringing the bike inside) so I'd better get cleaned up before she comes home. Also, my GSA is getting jealous that I'm not riding her and working on this R27. I'm hooked!

Marshall

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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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Kinda

Looks like a dog Turd. Shouldnt be anything like that in the gas tank. Make sure you take the carb off and put in carb cleaner of some kind. ports all need to be clean.

Rich

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92 R100RT/69 R69S
2004 Aprilia Atlantic 500cc single cylinder Scooter
83 Honda V65 Magna, fastest production bike in1983

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Exhaust Threads?

Rich - so far no more dog turds have floated up in the tank. I think I identified a 'possum tail and remnants of a birds nest. Actually it's cleaning up inside rather well. Waiting on Evaorust to do it's thing.

So I went to remove the header today and the flange nut was, after several days of soaking with penetrating oil still tight. I didn't want to put a 10' breaker bar on it so I cut the flange in two places with a rotary tool and popped it free. When I got the flange off the threads do not look pretty, i.e. mashed/not sharp (see pic). Any advice? Should I take it somewhere to try to re-thread, or try to put on the new flange and see if it will maybe re-cut the threads into the aluminum?

Thanks!
Marshall

  • photo_1_8.jpg
  • photo_2_8.jpg
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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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From what I can see, the

From what I can see, the threads don't look that bad. A couple of things you could do. Find a metric thread file...one of the sizes on that would be right to drag around the existing threads to clean up. The better thing might be to buy a new nut and cut it across opposite sides so that you can but around the bunged threads. Also, by cutting across the new nuts threads, you can create a pseudo thread chaser. Put your thread chaser around the old threads and hold them together, maybe with a hose clamp, and use it to work the old threads...use some kind of paste maybe anti seize to help lubricate while working easily back and forth.

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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

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well...

I'm with Kurt, except when I look at the left & right edges of the spigot... where the threads show in profile... it appears to me that the first three threads are fairly gone.

You might look into the cost of having the exhaust spigot replaced. The procedure involves cutting off the old spigot and counterboring the head to receive a newly machined spigot. As I recall it isn't unreasonably expensive, and the aluminum alloy used is better suited to the task.

These folks do that: http://www.motorworkspromach.com/ and would likely quote over the phone, just to give you a price check.
I'm sure there are other shops closer to your area that do the same.

It may be worthwhile to pull the head anyway, just to check the valve faces and hand-lap to restore their seal at minimum.

I know; scope creep.

btw: good job cutting that nut.

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De-rusted Tank, exhaust flange...

Scott and Kurt,

Thanks for the feedback. I remembered I have a buddy who is a machinist who races vintage MX bikes, going to get his assessment as well. I hope I'm not in for a major repair as she'll be sitting for a while. This is an "unplanned" project where I just jumped at the opportunity when I got it.

I'm posting some before and after pics of the tank interior after using evaporust for 24 hours. Also had a bucket I've been dropping rusted bolts in as I take them and and they're coming out as clean as can be. Great stuff, non volatile, and neutral pH.

Regards,
Marshall

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  • after.jpg
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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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Exhaust Threads...

Scott and Kurt -

I tried something in between both of your recommendations and its worked. A machinist at work (guy who races old Nortons) lent me a small triangular file to carefully dress the grooves in the exhaust. With some lubricants and going cross-eyed the header is now on. Now on to the carb, electrical / spark, and getting her started!

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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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cool

happy it worked out for you.

thanks for the update.

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Carb Float Removal?????

All - I'm starting on a carb rebuild and can't figure out how to remove the float. An old manual I have says to remove the float bowl by simply pushing the needle out? The needle spins freely, and is rusted some on the bottom, when I try pushing downward (towards the float bowl) it doesn't want to budge. I don't want to put too much force on it and break something. Any recommendations??

Thanks!
Marshall

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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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These carbs are know as

These carbs are know as "bottom feeders" since the fuel comes in through the bottom. Here is a picture of my R25/2 carb and parts...it is basically the same as the R27. Yes, the needle just pushes out...note the two wires across the top of the brass float. The needle has a detent in it which snaps between the these two wires. That should be what you're fighting, getting the wires to spread to allow the needle to slide out, freeing the float.

Be careful and apply force directly in line with the needle. It should come out. Spray some WD-40 or other lubricants where the two wires around to see if it will help the needle slide through.

  • carbfloat2.jpg
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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

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Float out...

Kurt - thank you. I got it out, she's not pretty inside but I think it will clean-up ok. (pics below) I tested the float and it does not appear to be leaking, will see how well it cleans up to see if I'll replace it or not. It was interesting because the float was locked on the needle at the downward position (would not "float"). I don't see how it could have worked like that .

I see an inlet a small jet-like opening at the top of the float cylinder, I'm assuming that is where the fuel flows toward the air intake?

Thanks again - I"m sure I'll have more questions. This is my last step before trying to fire her up (other than checking electrical).

Marshall

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'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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Not sure about that

Not sure about that hole...maybe you can spray some brake cleaner in the hole and see where it comes out.

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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

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She's ALIVE!!

http://youtu.be/SVtqmPHwTzo

Took about 15 minutes to get her running after being put back together. Had to jump start down a hill but now she cranks right up! Next will check the valves and make sure there is good oil distribution and put her on the road!

Thanks to all for your feedback, she's still be sitting without it!

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Marshall in NC
'66 R-27; 09 R1200 GSA

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