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pyalong
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Hi again..

Have just acquired this R50 and wondering if someone can shed some light on it's odd behaviour...
Seems to idle roughly and if revved to aprox 1800rpm it jumps to life and feels as both cylinders are
now properly firing.......to me it seems electrical but only just received the bike and thought I would
ask before having a play on the wend.

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schrader7032
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Congratulations! You should

Congratulations! You should do a complete tune up. Two things that jump to mind. The valves are not set to the correct clearance...intake should be 0.15mm and the exhaust 0.20mm. The other is that probably the carbs need a going over and a proper synch. Could be the cables. Each carb should pull evenly and matched to the other.

You should also change a few things so you know they are in good shape, like plugs and possibly the spark plug wires and caps. Also, be sure that the magneto safety gaps are set to 10-11mm.

You probably should get a repair manual. Haynes and Clymers makes a reasonable manual. The ultimate in restoration manuals is the Barrington Motor Works manual...probably costs about $125 but worth it in the end.

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'78 R100/7 '69 R69S '52 R25/2

pyalong
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Yep agree.......but leaning

Yep agree.......but leaning to electrical due to how she just jumps to life at 1800rpm with both cylinders .......but will go over it all in time....just thought someone may put their finger on it as it may be a common symptom .

schrader7032
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I wouldn't jump to

I wouldn't jump to conclusions. Electrical is not something that immediately comes out to me. Do the easy and proper things first...get it into a solid state of tune as best you can, then you know what you can eliminate and try things to isolate the issue.

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pyalong
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yep totally agree......easy

yep totally agree......easy was to ask first Smile

Thank you Kurt....you have given me a start point.....will not be waisted as I'm sure I will learn more about the bike's mech state etc.

ScottA
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idle circuit?

my first guess would be some blockage in the associated carburetor's idle circuit, judging from the symptoms... or perhaps a lean setting of the idle-air mixture screw.
Bing USA offers an inexpensive catalog with plenty of useful information for your carburetors, including baseline settings: http://www.bingcarburetor.com/

secondly I'd look at the spark plug wires, as Kurt mentioned. The caps screw onto the leads... you can twist the cap on and off the wire so it's worth checking whether those are on tight for good connection, and easily done.

your bike looks great. thanks for posting pics.

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55's first year. Nice

55's first year. Nice bike-good score!

pyalong
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Thank you Scott & Jim...I

Thank you Scott & Jim...I will purchase the Bing Catalog .....OK it does make sense to me now that one of the carb's is not happy at the
lower end of the rev range and as I go to about 1800rpm (little electronic rev gauge attached) it jumps to life.

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pyalong
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OK....I have ordered Plugs

OK....I have ordered Plugs points filter etc...and will do a compression test on the wend and check Tappet clearance and Carbs etc.

PS:........What psi should I be looking for 140 ish.. ?

schrader7032
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I would think that the 6.8:1

I would think that the 6.8:1 to compression R50 would be more like 120-ish.

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pyalong
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Thank you

Thank you Kurt................Hope she gets me close Smile

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I've mentioned this before as

I've mentioned this before as a rough way to calculate the compression. Take the ratio 6.8 and add 1. Then multiply 7.8 by 14.7.

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pyalong
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Yea......must remember this

Yea......must remember this formula .

R68
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...Very nice...

...your's is either very original, or restored by an unusually compulsive fella! It must be low milage to still have that impossible to find early seat rubber? The Eber taillight is available as a repop, the foot shift clevis pin is in upside down, and you don't need the fuel filter: there's already one in the petcock! I've never seen crash bars bent like that? I'd suggest you put 50 miles or so on the bike before taking the carbs apart; I also think your idle circuit is not functional on the one cylinder. Idle jet may be gummed up?...

540964
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Carbs are probably leaking at

Carbs are probably leaking at the head. Check that first. Nice early R50!

ScottA
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now that you mention it

540964 wrote:

Carbs are probably leaking at the head. Check that first. Nice early R50!

as in a vacuum leak at the carb flange where it meets the head?
That's quite possible too, had to fix that on mine.

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=bmwbikering;id=136;url=http%3A%2F%2Fw6r...

look under: /2 technical info, late 1955-69

then: Correcting the /2 carb intake leaks.

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pyalong
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I hate the look of cut lines

I hate the look of cut lines and filters in the middle with extra clamps etc...just not a good look......so off they come.
I have pasted the original add below.............I appreciate the help.

Here we have an early BMW R50 that is extremely original and unmolested, I am the forth owner, it was sold new by Tom Burns (Sydney's BMW bike distributor) and was owned by Don Wilson for many years. Don Wilson is renowned for his life long association with BMW motorcycle maintenance and repairs, it then was sold to the next owner who had it for 24 years and at 84 years of age decided to get a bike with an electric starter just to make life easier on cold mornings, this made it available for me to become the next custodian. I am in my seventies and I am selling off a few of my bikes to make space. This bike is a pleasure to own and ride and is just to good to dismantle and restore, I can leave it for weeks at a time and two strikes of the starter lever and away she goes. The motor has had the slingers cleaned two years ago and that is not many miles ago, the tyres were replaced with new ones Jan 2014, fuel lines &

pyalong
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WOW...Thank you

WOW...Thank you fellows.....

Will get-up early and check at the head end....thought they should have had clamps on both ends of that breather hose.

pyalong
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Great article Scott and I

Great article Scott and I think it's most likely that I have a couple of warped flanges as the carbs look like they have not been touched in a very long time..........but they have that nice original (never bead blasted ) look ...

Great article..by Duane Ausherman http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=bmwbikering;id=136;url=http%3A%2F%2Fw6r...

BMW /2 motorcycle Bing carb flanges and sticking slides

by Duane Ausherman

This page is about the BMW motorcycle models R51/2, R51/3, R67, R67/2, R67/3, R68, R50, R60, R69, R50/2, R60/2, R50S, R69S, R50/US, R60/US, R69US.

Flange intake leak

These models of BMW were supplied with Bing carbs made by Fritz Hintermayer GMBH. Tuning can be compromised due to an intake air leak. The symptom is a "flat spot" as the rpm comes just off idle. It can come from a couple of sources. The most common one is a plugged up idle gas jet and the second is a warped flange. Here is what to do about a warped flange.

Virtually all /2 carb flanges will show some warping. It is caused by heat and being tightened at the top and bottom. It is natural. The problem is exacerbated by over tightening of the two flange nuts. I have often found them very tight. The R69S has the split metal collar to help reduce any intake leak caused by warping. It really makes a great difference. The R50/R60, without the collar, leaks a lot more. That is why BMW changed the carb connection on the /5 series.

The symptom of leakage past the flange is the same as with a clogged up #35 idle gas jet. The 1968-69 models were provided with the newer carb top that we call a lever top. That carb was also provided with a # 35 idle gas jet. They all have the flat spot unless the jet is changed to a # 40. I have had to change a few to a #45 jet. The /2 BMWs sold in the rest of the world (many years) seemed to have a #30 jet. Change it to a # 35 for proper tuning.

The adjustment doesn't make the normal changes in sound and rpm. Running it all of the way in doesn't kill the engine. Each time one laps the flange to "flatten" it out, it is thinner and in the future, warps even faster. I bet I have lapped hundreds of them. Usually the thick paper spacer/gasket must be lapped too. One must be careful to lap evenly or the flange can get thin on one side and "cock" the carb to one side. The flange thickness is the ultimate life of the carb. To reduce the warping we did a few things, but I am sure that today, more is known about what to do for this malady. Someone may offer more current advice on this issue. Only tighten the two nuts as little as possible. We tried silicone to seal a warped flange to avoid lapping. It worked, but now it wasn't "road serviceable" any longer. I bet someone has a silicone gasket that will take a lot of "squish" and seal better.

Hand lapping the BMW Bing carb flange

flange1.jpg (53970 bytes)

This shows the carb face. If you look very closely you can see some marks in an arc shape. They are the original machining marks from the factory. These are very faint ones, as they are usually far more prominent. It means that we are starting with a "virgin" body, carb body that is. This one still has a long life, if treated properly.

flange11.jpg (52016 bytes)

Here is a NOS (new old stock) body for a sport model. See the obvious marks in an arc shape? See the groove machined in the face of the flange? That gets a collar or sleeve. The head has a matching groove. This type seals much better than the non sport type carb.

The side view, showing the angle when "new" and not lapped too many times. One side is thicker than the other. It is desirable to keep that approximate angle, but that is impossible by lapping. It is better to lap the thicker side and leave the thinner side as thick as possible.

flange3.jpg (21528 bytes)

This is a view of a straight edge placed against the carb face. You can see a large amount of light coming through most of the length of the face. That is the problem that we will fix.

An owner can "usually" hand lap the face to be straight and level again without much work. You will need something that you know is flat. I suggest that any BMW owner that does his own work, own a glass plate. It is useful for a few other jobs too. Go to your local glass shop and ask for a 9" X 17" piece of plate glass or mirror. That size serves as a fork tool. Any old scratched scrap is OK for this job. Make sure that they bevel the edges. I have never payed more than $5 for one. They break easily, so get two. Don't ask how I know that. I prefer mirror glass because it serves double duty. Anytime I wonder what my problem is, I just look in the mirror Smile

flange4.jpg (41959 bytes)

You will need a piece or two of special sand paper. I like the wet-n-dry type. See the price tag of $.19? Maybe I have had this for 25 years, or more. It is made by several manufacturers and they all work well. I like to start with 360 grit to get a look and then change to 220 grit to go faster. Set your glass in a convenient place and add a bit of solvent, then the paper. The solvent will help hold the paper in place. Use plenty of solvent on the paper, as it keeps the fine grit from plugging up the paper quickly. The high spot is at the top and bottom, or tips, of the carb body. At first it will want to rock sideways and is a bit hard to hold.

flange6.jpg (73649 bytes)

Because the carb body wants to rock sideways, I very carefully lap it up and down, with respect to the photo. You can see the vertical "dirt" tracks on the paper. The starting is the critical part, but it just takes some attention, it's not hard.

flange7.jpg (47365 bytes)

This is the result of the first bit of lapping. It is about 15-20% done. Now you can see why it wants to rock back and forth. Don't allow it to do that. Hold it carefully towards the thick side. It is not easy to do.

flange8.jpg (57438 bytes)

In this photo the face is about 35-40% done. I would change paper to the 220 grit to save time.

flange9.jpg (34572 bytes)

Now it is at about 70% lapped. One could stop at any time and use some filler to finish plugging the air leak path. The less taken off the better for it's ultimate life. Sorry for the poor quality photo.

flange10.jpg (58946 bytes)

I have lapped it this far because this body will be shortly offered on ebay. I don't want the potential buyer to be concerned with a non flat flange. We used to always lap them this far, or even totally, because carb bodies were easy to get, and cheap too. Now things are different. Keep as much metal as you can.

I would estimate that I took off about .015," or so. It took me only about 6-8 minutes. The top is now .375" thick and the bottom is .395," but I don't know the original size. We worked on so many of these that we never thought about measuring them. We just "knew" how thick they should be. An individual owner won't have any way to judge it, so maybe a measurement will help.

New information added 19 April 2005.

Although I am not in the motorcycle business, I still like to keep my "hands in." Recently I have had occasion to tune a few /2 bikes. I had to remove and lap the flanges on all of them. No big deal, as I still have some old paper. I had a pair of carbs to do today. I lapped the first one and it went as expected. The second started as expected, but the paper seemed to wear out before I finished. I went into town to get more and decided to get two sheets. They too wore out before finishing the job. I blamed the "off brand" paper, not the lap person. I drove to the next town to get the "good stuff" that I am used to.

Here is where I found that I just barged ahead and didn't really examine the carb until I had spent an hour or so with the lapping. I "assumed" once more in my life, again to my detriment. My experience is from 30-40 years ago. The carbs were fairly new and still needed to be lapped. It is only reasonable that 30 years later, things could be worse. They turned out to be far worse.

Yes, I know that the photo is of poor quality. I took this one several times and this was the best one. I only want to show how far I got with the lapping before I "woke up" to the seriousness of the warp. This is actually the other carb, but I failed to take think about taking the photos at that time. The idea is to show the upper shaded area that is the part that isn't yet lapped down. The curved lines prove that this carb was never lapped down before.

Here is a "straight on" shot. The shot isn't distorted, the throat was distorted by time, heat and stress. I somehow failed to notice this right off, I guess because I had not seen it for a long time. Doing so many of these caused me to become complacent. The carb flange was really warped badly. This explains why my lapping was taking so long. To add to the situation, I had accidentally allowed the carb to "tilt" off to the wrong side. I was lapping the thin side thinner, not the thicker side. The other carb throat showed almost no out of round at all. I presume that they are the same age.

Here you can see what a straight edge revealed. Wow, I wasn't even in the ballpark with my lapping. This shot sort of makes it look like it is curved, but that isn't the case. Most of the lapping was on the thin side. So I now had a fairly wide wrongly lapped area and a fairly narrow untouched one. I had to "feel" for the narrow one and gently lap at it. Every couple of strokes I would stop and "feel" the unwanted wide area and go for the narrow area. I needed a way to easily and accurately show my progress in the right direction. I tried two permanent magic markers, but the solvent washed it away. Then I remembered that the paper is also water proof. I "painted" the flange again and used water.

The painted flange. After about 20-30 minutes of lapping I had the desired area larger than the unwanted one.

The blue area on the right is where I first was lapping the flange. Now I have it fairly well lapped down on the thick side.

pyalong
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Engine oil...?

I am totally confused after reading endless threads I am having nightmares about sludge and slingers etc.....I want to change the oil
in my newly acquired R50.....what do i use...detergent or old school non-detergent...????
Will pull the oil pan first and look but what to use...?

schrader7032
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Oil...that is the question!

pyalong wrote:

I am totally confused after reading endless threads I am having nightmares about sludge and slingers etc.....I want to change the oil
in my newly acquired R50.....what do i use...detergent or old school non-detergent...????
Will pull the oil pan first and look but what to use...?

Definitely pull the pan and clean it. As for oil, it's really a personal call. On my two vintage bikes, I'm using BMW detergent oil and I also have completed full teardowns. Here would be my thoughts:

- you should try to get an oil with sufficient amounts of ZDDP, something like 1000 ppm of zinc and 1000 ppm of phosphorus. Usually you should get that with an oil API grade of SG/SH
- if you go non-detergent, I think (not sure though) you'll only get straight weight oils so you'll have to be mindful of changing outside temperatures to get the right viscosity
- detergent oils give you more latitude with temps and viscosity issues

The general thought is that with a non-detergent, most of the "crud" in the oil will settle to the bottom of the pan between the times that you run the bike. That means that the crud is not circulating to get caught in the slingers...you should be able to go a long, long time between slinger cleaning. Duane Ausherman has said in the "old days", they went 100K miles without doing any slinger work.

But if you use a detergent oil, it keeps the crud in suspension only to be caught in the slingers. Using a detergent oil on an older, unrestored engine could mean that the detergents will scour the engine clean and fill the slingers very fast. If you rebuild an engine, starting with detergent oil should be OK provided you change the oil frequently, like maybe every 1000 miles or year or something like that. The crud takes a bit of time to build up from blow by and other stuff, so running it for a while should be fine.

So, I think you need to consider your particular situation and decide what works for you.

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pyalong
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Thank you Kurt......will see

Thank you Kurt......will see what the Pan shows me and then look what oils are available here for me and what ever I choose to use I will
change on a regular basis.........

pyalong
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Carbs

OK ...I lapped the Carby flanges and it worked great as both where warped BUT both also had splits at the bottom of their bodies from
what looked like corrosion from sitting......Can that be salvaged by welding ?

But I also had a set of new Bings for this model Smile but would still love to salvage the old ones.

Also did a compression test and ......RHS is great 120psi and steps up in psi Nicely but LHS struggles to get to 100psi....so checked Valve clearance and outlet was .15 so adjusted to .2mm and can't help thinking there is more to do with the top end.

I also removed the oil pan and the oil was blackish but no metal or sludge. Smile

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pyalong
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The only low Detergent oil I

The only low Detergent oil I can find in my corner of the World is......looks good to me......OK ?

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=14&id_products=72

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The only low Detergent oil I

The only low Detergent oil I can find in my corner of the World is Penrite Shelsley Light......looks good to me......OK ??

"SHELSLEY LIGHT is a premium mineral, SAE 30, high zinc, very low detergent engine oil designed specifically for petrol, kerosene and diesel fuelled vintage, pre-war and post war vehicles manufactured to 1950. It features a double layer of engine wear protection with high zinc and increased operating temperature viscosity over monograde oils.

Additional Information:
SHELSLEY LIGHT is suitable for passenger cars, motorcycles, 4WD's, light & heavy duty commercial vehicles (trucks, buses & heavy equipment), tractors & industrial machines that originally specified a SAE 30 monograde grade engine oil fitted with/ without an engine oil filter. Those vehicles that require a higher detergency should use Penrite Classic Light Engine Oil.

SHELSLEY LIGHT is a SAE 20W-60 engine oil for vehicles that specified SAE 30 grade engine oils. It is suitable for small capacity vintage engines relying totally on splash lubrication. Also suitable for small capacity sleeve valve engined cars such as Minerva, Mors, Knight and Daimler. Can be used for vehicles operating where cooler ambient temperatures will be experienced.

SHELSLEY LIGHT is ideal for use in early vintage (pre 1950) motorcycles, incorporating sight glasses, pilgrim oil pumps and total loss lubrication systems. It is suitable for use in motor cycles fitted with a wet clutch"

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As for the compression, I

As for the compression, I think the rule of thumb is that you want to cylinders to be within 10% of each other. So 120 vs 100 is a bit outside that range. Provided you did the process the same on each side, then you might be looking at some needed work. Something else that can be instructive is doing a leakdown test. That tells you where you need to focus your attention, be it rings or valves. But if you're headed in for a top end, most likely you will remeasure the parts and replace things that are out of spec anyway.

I've never really heard of the Shelsley oil...I'm sure there are a lot of oils out there. I'd be inclined to write them to get specifics on the exact quantities of ZDDP. I wouldn't get too hung up on all of the real details on the oil. Since you're in a small corner of the world, you have special challenges that some of us don't have. A say goes "Clean oil is better than dirty oil; dirty oil is better than no oil." Keep the bike in good tune, get the best quality oil you can, and change it regularly.

That said, I have a friend with a '65 R60/2. He began to notice small flakes in his oil. He had been using what he thought was a good quality oil but it turns out the company changed the formulation of the oil. We took the cylinders off to discover that the face of the cam followers are shredded...the culprit might be the loss of ZDDP in the oil.

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Zinc levels...

Kurt Zinc level is 1400 ppm.......Valvoline VR-1 is 1200ppm..........I can get both where I am but the Shelsley light is also low Detergent
and high Zinc content.........what do you think..?

Have you any opinion on my old Carbs .....split/ rott at the bottom of the float bowl end on both (not leaking) can the bodies be repaired in your opinion.

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Zinc sounds good...what about

Zinc sounds good...what about the phosphorous content?

Darryl has reported here before about a Caswell product called Muggy Weld...check out this thread:

http://www.vintagebmw.org/v7/node/7585

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pyalong
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Muggy Weld..

I don't know about the phosphorous content but it's advertised as being specifically engineered for old Cars and bikes etc...

WOW my carby should be an easy fix after seeing that thread....they are very clean bar a little rott at the bottom....

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If you feel good about using

If you feel good about using the oil, go for it. It'll probably be OK...I wouldn't get all wrapped up on things to the point of paralysis. It sounds like you're investigating things and at least will have made a good decision going forward. In the end, whatever happens, it can all be fixed with money! Big Grin

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$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yes

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Yes Smile

pyalong
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OK....I rang the previous

OK....I rang the previous owner and had a chat and he tells me if i watch the advance unit it will just start to move/work right when the engine revs at that 1800rpm and sound and feels like both cylinders work......could it be the advance unit that is causing this flat spot until 1800 rpm...?

schrader7032
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I could be wrong, but you

I could be wrong, but you want the advance to kick in almost immediately. The unit should be removed, cleaned and lightly lubed. Inspect for places where there has been rubbing indicating interference. It could be that the two small springs holding the weights in are too strong or the wrong ones. Be relatively careful reinstalling the advance unit...the 10mm nut on the end can shear off the end of the camshaft if you get too hamfisted with it.

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pyalong
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Yea...I would have thought so

Yea...I would have thought so as well ......

pyalong
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OK...Received my new Advance

OK...Received my new Advance unit....had to be adjusted as one of the arms/fingers was way out.....but what a difference now she runs and idles great and I have not even adjusted the new carb's yet.........I love working on these bikes and I think they love me back as
they respond positively every time I work on them Smile

Gunter

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