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emek69
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Here are the recent gems I was able to dig out for sale in Europe. My friend is the guy that keeps on digging there for me. There is R5 engine/ R51 frame combo. Both have unmolested (not matching of course) vin numbers, the motor has repop valve covers on it but the original ones are available as it the timing chain, asking price is $6500 +shipping to US for the combo. The R12 is bit bastardized and would need some cleanup, still waiting for the price on that. What you guys think, would this be worth the hustle to start importing to US???

https://plus.google.com/photos/104611995337010260973/albums/593738467909...

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R68
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Interesting photos...

The blue paint is characteristic of east europe quickie restoration: it's one of the few colors that was available. It's a Russian frame (M72?): weird horn bracket, very crude welds. That might be an R5 crankcase, but with repaired R51 heads, homemade generator gear: beware! You can see all the good parts he's keeping on the shelf in the "garage": gearbox, final drive. The background scenery just screams rural eastern europe...I'd suggest you pass on this scrap, and go after that authentic R51 you showed us a few months ago? Nowadays the Poles do nice work I'm told, but back then...

Pete Murphy
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can't see

emek69 wrote:

Here are the recent gems I was able to dig out for sale in Europe. My friend is the guy that keeps on digging there for me. There is R5 engine/ R51 frame combo. Both have unmolested (not matching of course) vin numbers, the motor has repop valve covers on it but the original ones are available as it the timing chain, asking price is $6500 +shipping to US for the combo. The R12 is bit bastardized and would need some cleanup, still waiting for the price on that. What you guys think, would this be worth the hustle to start importing to US???

https://plus.google.com/photos/104611995337010260973/albums/5937384679091443937

Any chance you can host the pics somewhere else (google plus is blocked here)? I'd love to see the bike you are talking about.
Cheers,
Pete

brown3459
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Pete, when I click on the

Pete, when I click on the first link it is not blocked for me. Try it. Barry

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Pete Murphy
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Just my location

brown3459 wrote:

Pete, when I click on the first link it is not blocked for me. Try it. Barry

Barry, it's just my location in Shanghai. A lot of social media and blog sites are blocked by the government sadly.
Cheers,
Pete

Pete Murphy
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frame details

R68 wrote:

... It's a Russian frame (M72?): weird horn bracket, very crude welds.

Just got a look at the pics for the first time.

Was wondering why you think it's a M72 frame? Because of the 'weird horn bracket, very crude welds'? What makes the horn bracket weird? Just trying to learn.

The headstock looks more BMW than Russian, and if Russian the frame has been modified greatly or is itself very early. The welds at the back look poor but the front not bad? Could it be a BMW frame repaired with a Russian back end?

Thanks,
Pete

bmwmyplace
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Australia
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I just went and looked at one

I just went and looked at one of my R51 frames , one has the same seat/horn bracket as the one you show in the pics, my other frame has the bracket at the bottom bent back up in a "U" shape. The only BAD weld I can see on the frame is the right side rear foot peg , has been poorly repaired, and the third frame is in the loft so I cant get to it hope that helps, I did notice number stamped on the head stem ? I haven't seen that before.cheers Peter

Pete Murphy
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Thanks

Thanks for looking at your frames Peter.

I think the frame in the pic looks legit and so I'm interested why R68 thinks it is Russian. Trying to learn! I thought the weld visible on the plunger upright looked a bit rough.

Cheers,
Pete

R68
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I'm not sure...

...maybe someone who knows about R51 can chime in...?

bmwmyplace
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PeteI think that $6k is too

PeteI think that $6k is too much for a frame and engine , I see he has a gearbox aside in one of the pics, see if you can sweeten the deal see if he will throw in the gearbox and a rear drive, You could build a legit special ISTD R5 eng in R51 style frame as they did late 1937

Pete Murphy
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not mine

Hi Peter, this isn't my prospect. emek69 started the thread. I think it's a steep price also.

I'm interested in early plunger frame bikes though. I have a pre-war R51 frame that seriously hacked up but with R75 engine mounts added. My intention is to restore the frame but retain the R75 mounts and build a race style bike with that engine - if I can ever find one at a sensible price! This is a long term project haha! I don't have any hang ups about a Bitsa bike, but I'd like it looking period correct - at least to the early 1950's.

I also have an early Russian plunger frame bike of that vintage that I love too. Not too many early survivors. This is why I'm interested why R68 thinks the frame in question is Russian.

Sorry to hijack the thread emek69 and thanks for your help Peter.

Cheers,
Pete

Pete Murphy
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contact

R68 wrote:

...maybe someone who knows about R51 can chime in...?

Been trying to contact you about the other issue. Can you drop me a line to pm at rockprivateoffice dot com. My hotmail account is rejecting your email address for some reason and I'm unable to reply to pm's here - not sure why. Very frustrating.

Sorry again emek69!

Cheers,
Pete

bmwmyplace
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Australia
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Pete Murphy sorry about that

Pete Murphy sorry about that I wasn't paying attention , seems that emek69 has lost interest and we are trying to solve a problem that he has lost interest in perhaps, I do wish people would use their name when they sign off, it seems this email/ internet system allows for all sorts of poor writing etiquette so often I get request for information from folk who wont introduce themselves and don't sign their names at the end of the letter.... sorry I'm ranting again kind regards Peter Gibbs

Pete Murphy
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irritates me too

Hi Peter,

The screen name thing irritates me too. I understand why many people don't wish to be identified on a public forum, but signing off with a real name would be nice.

If emek69 has lost interest, it's still a useful conversation for future reference. Thanks for responding, it has been helpful to me.

I'd add that the majority of Russian M72 frames I've seen are more like BMW post war frames with the additional frame rails, although I guess some early frames could be like the pre-war design. I'd love to see one. This is what pricked my interest. They don't usually have the steering lock but I guess early frames could have. They usually have two grease nipples for the steering bearings. I don't think the grease nipples feature on any BMW frames? Weld quality varies but is often not bad at all. I'm keen to learn more about both frames and how to identify and date them accurately.

Cheers,
Pete

bmwmyplace
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Australia
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Pete I take it you know how

Pete I take it you know how to access BMW archives file and all the photos they have stored there?, there are a few frame phots mostly of bent ones if I recall. I have an R 5 frame with some braces and gussets and one without, there was a section dedicated in the R5ss wksp manual that gave the specs of the mods If I recall, I tried to att the info but it seems my new windows 7 is corrupting many of my old files..."" I don't think the grease nipples feature on any BMW frames? " I think you are correct I have never seen any either pre or post war.

Cheers Peter G.

Darryl.Richman
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Don't the Soviet frames have

Don't the Soviet frames have triangular gussets welded in between the top and bottom rails and the vertical plunger supports, for added strength, I suppose?

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Pete Murphy
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No I don't

Pleease enlighten me? Smile

Pete Murphy
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Yes

Darryl.Richman wrote:

Don't the Soviet frames have triangular gussets welded in between the top and bottom rails and the vertical plunger supports, for added strength, I suppose?

Yes these were added during the war at some point. early frames had a crude large folded gusset then later one that looks pressed - the same as on Chinese frames currently. These can be easily removed of course. The main rail profiles are identical to BMW on the M72 frames and could easily be used to repair a damaged BMW frame.

Cheers,
Pete

bmwmyplace
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Australia
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Pete go to

Pete go to http://www.bmw-grouparchiv.de/2/webmill.php?id=158074& type in model making sure you have a space between the "R" and 51 like so R 51, click on motorcycle and they should come up cheers peter

Pete Murphy
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Thanks Peter!

Wow! wasted far too much time on there today. Thanks for the link.

Bruce Frey
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Texas Hill Country, USA
Joined: 10/27/2006
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Plunger Frame

To my eye, the plunger frame is an early BMW version.

The gusset between the head tube, top tube and down tube on the plunger frames was added by Montageanweisung Nr.30R (Assembly Instruction 30R) dated 24 October 1939. This was also a retrofit for R5/R6 frames.

The addition of the horizontal tube under the tank and the "seat post" were added by Montageanweisung Nr. 47R, dated 14 September 1940. The horizontal tube was also a retrofit for R5/R6 frames (which had the seat post as a part of their original designs).

All of the Russian frames I have seen (or at least those that I thought were Russian) have had at lease the front gusset and usually the later mods, too.

Cheers,

Bruce

PreviewAttachmentSize
30r_r5_r51_frame.de_.pdf52.21 KB
47r_r5_r51_frame.de_.pdf50.84 KB
bmwmyplace
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Bruce...How are you? long

Bruce...How are you? long time no chat.... well done I tried to att the mods but failed my new windows seven says the book is corrupted, I tell you ... Ive had enough of this , nearly all the photos I have taken recently ,when I try to down load them I get the same message just as well I printed a hard copy of your book, (Have you translated it yet?) take care regards peter G

Pete Murphy
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Thanks Bruce

Great info Bruce. Thanks for the attachments!

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